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mad fientist: hey, welcome, everybody, tothe financial independence podcast, the podcast where i get inside the brains of some of thebest and brightest in the personal finance space to find out how they achieved earlyfinancial independence. on today’s show, i’m excited to introducejoe and ali. joe is better known on the internet as mr. money mustache, forum moderator extraordinaire,arebelspy—or arebelspy, as i first pronounced it, probably for the first year that i sawit written down without spaces. i had the chance to meet and hang out withboth joe and ali at camp mustache the past two years. i found their story so interestingand inspiring that i knew i had to get them on the show at some point. so i’m reallyexcited that they’re here today.

both joe and ali are ex-public school teacherswho are able to go from a $0 net worth in 2010 to financial independence last year.and they did so by building up a portfolio of rental properties that now provide enoughcash flow that cover their expenses. after retiring last year, they now travelthe world full time with their new baby girl, annabel, who was actually born in istanbul,turkey, of all places. and as you’ll soon hear, their retirement has been extremelyexciting with lots of interesting things happening. so without further delay, joe and ali, thanksa lot for being here. joe: yes, no problem. glad to be here. mad fientist: so where exactly are you, guys?

ali: so we’re in siem reap, cambodia rightnow. mad fientist: nice! so you are pretty muchon the exact opposite end of the world from where i’m at. i’m sitting in guanajuato,mexico right now. so if this skype call holds together, that would be a miracle, but youguys sound great. so you guys have been on the road for howlong? joe: it’s been a little over a year. weearly retired in june of 2015. and then we left las vegas where we were living in august. ali: we officially left the u.s. end of august2015. mad fientist: wow! and you’ve been on theroad the whole time, and you had a baby while

you’ve been on the road. is that right? ali: yes. mad fientist: so where did annabel join thescene? ali: she was born in istanbul, turkey, soher passport says turkey as her country of birth. mad fientist: that’s amazing. so yes, weobviously have a lot to talk about. i don’t want to jump too far ahead. so we’ll goback to the beginning, and then we’ll definitely get back into all of that stuff because it’sextremely interesting. so yes, just for people that may not knowyou in the community, can you just tell a

little bit about yourselves? joe: so, i go by the screen name, arebelspy,which a lot of people mispronounce as “arabelspy” or different versions of that because it allruns together. but i’m mostly on the mmm forums when it comes to the early retirementcommunity, but i also comment on different blogs and stuff like that. and my wife is less active in those communities,but a huge partner in getting us to financial independence. mad fientist: and i know you guys very wellfrom two camp mustaches in the pacific northwest. we’ve, luckily, hung out a lot, which hasbeen great. i’m trying to think of what

i thought you were because you commented onmy blog way back in the day which i thought was amazing. you always had such good comments.and i was like, “man, that arebelspy guy is so good.” and i think it was only probably a year afterchatting with you on my blog is that i realized it was arebelspy. i’m sure that’s thecase for a lot of people. ali: we have been married for about two yearsbefore he said it out loud one day. and i was like, “oh, i did not get that.” mad fientist: that’s amazing. and you, joe,you are a huge influence in the forums. you’re a moderator with how many thousands of actualcomments?

joe: tens of thousands, yes. for whateverreason, i really enjoy the interaction of internet forums. so even for the last decadeor two, i’ve had thousands of posts across different forums for whatever kind of hobbyi’m into at the moment. at one time, it was pocket pc’s, those oldhandheld, like palm pilot type things. and i had thousands of posts on those forums. and at one point, it was a motorcycle forumwhen ali and i both had gotten motorcycles and all kinds of different various forums. but the mmm forums, i really enjoy talkingabout financial independence and talking about finance in general. and the sort of peoplewho tend to seek fi tend to be, i found more,

sort of engaging, interesting people likeyourself, brandon. i enjoy that type of interaction. mad fientist: thanks. it’s amazing whatyou do and accomplish there because, for some reason, anytime i type something, i have tore-read it like 5000 times, so one e-mail will take me about an hour to complete. andthat’s why writing posts takes me so long. so to see the amount of intelligent stuffthat you put out into the forum, it just amazes me every time i see it. but meeting you in person, i got a glimpseinto how that all works. just chatting with you about how many books you read and howmany podcasts you listen to and things, joking

that—i was annoying you by talking at 1xspeed because i know you listen to everything. you’re like 2x at least, 2x speed. i’msorry that these questions are going to be coming at you very slowly, but we’ll workthrough it. joe: […] hear your voice at 1x because ilisten to all my podcasts at double speed. so that’s a pro tip for your listeners whojust want to get that content even quicker. mad fientist: yes, it’s amazing. let’sget back to you guys and your story because it’s a really incredible one. if i’ve done my research right, you guyswere pretty much at a $0 net worth back in 2010, and now, you’re completely financiallyindependent and traveling the world. you did

it as public school teachers. so, could you talk a little bit about thebackground? first, just schooling and stuff, and then getting to that $0 net worth. andthen we’ll obviously dive into how you hit fi in record time and in impressive fashion. ali: we met at school, at college. and thenwe both got jobs as teachers in las vegas. luckily, las vegas has a really low cost ofliving, but it also has a low teacher pay. so, we were living in vegas, and we didn’thave any lifestyle inflation when we actually finally got jobs, which was really nice. sowe were just living in a small apartment. we took as many extra jobs as we possiblycould to start getting our wealth built up,

and pay off any school debts we had. we didsummer schools, saturday schools. i got extra classes. we did clubs, and all sorts of extrathings to try to bulk up that pay amounts. mad fientist: that’s something that ed millsfrom millionaire educator, i had him on the show too, and that was a common theme thathe talked about as well—not just doing the bare minimum for teaching, but actually pickingup all those extracurriculars and all the different things that teachers can actuallyvolunteer for to do. it seems like that makes a pretty big differencein the bottom line. is that right? ali: yes. it’s a huge chunk. when you’renot getting paid that much, and then you add on summer school, and a couple of differentclubs, and you add in—

joe: the baby is very excited to hear allthis. ali: i don’t know what i was saying at thispoint. joe: it’s a big different percentage-wisebecause if you’re making $35,000, and you teach summer school for $3500, it’s like,“wow, there’s a 10% boost in my salary.” mad fientist: and if you’re pocketing thatand investing it, then that can definitely go a long way. so you guys graduated back in 2007, i think.so joe, you started out of the gate with 32k. and then ali, you were doing substitute teaching,i think, for 20k, is that right? ali: right.

mad fientist: and then all the other stuffon top of that. all the other stuff is an addition to those base salaries? joe: yes. mad fientist: and you guys started with 30kof student debt too. so it wasn’t like you’re just coming right out of the gate and justsaving and investing right away. joe: yes, i’ve never looked at the exactnumbers. i know i had a little over $20,000, and ali had around $10,000 or $15,000, sosomewhere around $35,000 maybe. i never really paid attention because it wasautomated, the payment. and the interest rate was so low that i knew we wanted to investeverything we could, and just pay it off as

low as possible. that dwindled down and paidoff. ali: it was even when we got to the pointwhere there was like $100 left of loans, and we didn’t want to pay it off quite yet becausewe’re like, “just let it go one more month and invest the money instead.” mad fientist: i was exactly the same. it wasthe thing that had the longest history on my credit report too. so i was like, “thisis making my credit score really high because i’ve been paying this off for years.” but yes, when it got down to $500, and myminimum payments were like $131 or something, i was like, “man, i just want to pay thisoff and stop thinking about it.” but i kept

going until the very last payment. i definitelyfeel that. so you guys, were you always good financially?obviously, i don’t think you stumbled upon this whole fire movement way back in 2010.but were you guys good with money? was it always something that interests you? ali: well, i know i had a job since the junioryear of high school. i always had to be in charge of my own finances. so i’ve beenpretty decent with my money. and we started living together and paying our own financeswhen we were […] so we’ve been trying to keep our costs down since we were brokecollege students […] joe: i was good with the math of compoundedinterest, but was never super good at keeping

my expenses low. and especially, i had a roommatein college, we put together an ebay business that made six figures, and blew all of it. he was not a great influence in terms of spending.and so he’d come in with a new, shiny rolex, and giant flat screen tv and everything. andi was like, “cool, me too.” but luckily, we got over that pretty quick.and then yes, it was just keeping our expenses low at that college level. when we moved to vegas, we got a little 400sq. ft. condo, and lived there our whole eight years in vegas. we just never really succumbto lifestyle inflation. mad fientist: that’s awesome.

ali: we had that same flat screen tv thathe bought in college all the way through. mad fientist: nice. that’s cool. and youbought your condo in 2007, which a vegas condo in 2007 couldn’t have been that great ofan investment. joe: that did not turn out well. actually,that probably segue ways us pretty good into the next question probably most people have.it’s like, “alright! you’re teachers, and you weren’t making that much, so howdid you actually retire?” and the answer is mostly real estate. so we moved to vegas. vegas peaked a little,ahead of the rest of the country in the summer of 2006. so then prices started falling allthe rest of 2006 and all of 2007.

so by the end of 2007, prices had fallen fora year-and-a-half, and i was like, “wow, this is a great time to buy.” it was not. but we bought our condo and pricescontinued to fall. they fell for another year. and at the end of 2008, i was like, “wow,they’ve been falling for 2 ⽠years now. this will be a great time to buy a rental.” and so in 2008, we bought a rental property.and it seemed like a good deal because the price of the property was $120,000, and atthe peak, it had sold just two years before for $360,000.it sold for $360,000, and now, it’s $120,000. this is great.

but then the prices kept falling. and it keptfalling in 2009 in 2010. and that property actually bottomed out being worth around $80,000.so we were under water on it, but we were still making money every month because therent was higher than the mortgage payment by a decent amount. and then so prices kept falling, and so webought another couple of properties in 2010, and then another one in 2011, and then anotherfew in 2012. and so we just dollar cost averaged in theproperties as the prices kept falling, and we kept buying a few more and a few more.and then the prices bottomed out around early 2012, and we bought a few more then. and pricesrose a little, and we bought a few more. and

so we ended up with a number of rental properties. and then we pretty much initially just fundedit by saving when we were both making around $40,000, but only spending $20,000, so wewere grossing $80,000 plus all the extras that we mentioned—summer school and afterschool tutoring and everything. and living on under $20,000, we were able to save. when prices are $100,000, and we put downa $20,000 down payment, we can save that up in four, five, six months, and then go onand get the next one and the next one. and then they started to do the fun thingwhere compound interest catches up, and now, rents are coming in, and starts to snowball,so you can purchase then even quicker.

ali: we sort of fell into real estate. mad fientist: that’s amazing. how many unitsare you up to now? joe: so right now, we have 15 rental properties. mad fientist: and those, are they mostly concentratedin vegas, or do you have all over the country? joe: about a third of them are in vegas, andthe rest are spread around. after vegas, in 2013, the hedge funds came in, blackstoneand a whole bunch of other companies. that was right around the time warren buffet madea comment about if he could do it at scale, he would be just purchasing a bunch of singlefamily properties. so, a bunch of hedge funds came and startedpurchasing up rental properties. and prices

rose quite a bit. and so i started lookingat other markets and investing in other areas. mad fientist: which areas? just curious. joe: either properties or notes, in michigan,vermont, ohio, north carolina, and one other one i can’t think of off the top of my head. mad fientist: that’s all right. how differentis it, purchasing properties in towns that you may not be as familiar with? joe: it’s very different, but it’s somethingcompletely doable if you set up the right systems, if you know what you’re doing. i have a post on the mmm forums. if you google“purchasing real estate you’ve never seen,”

that’s the title of the thread, and so ifyou just use that exact phrase, it will be the top google hit. for whatever reason, it’llbe within the first two or three if not the top one. mad fientist: nice, so i’ll find it andput it in the show notes. i’ll definitely link to it. joe: so yes, it’s called “purchasing realestate you’ve never seen,” and it talks about how you should basically build a teamof people who will be able to facilitate that transaction.essentially, i don’t know what i’m doing in terms of—like if i go into a property,i can’t say, “that furnace is bad,”

just by looking at it. i don’t have thatexpertise. so if i’m purchasing a property next doorin vegas, i would need to hire a home inspector to go through and check everything, and giveme the report, and tell me, “these are the problems.” and then i need to talk to a contractor, andhe’ll say, “here’s our estimate to fix it.” and i talk to a couple of differentpeople. but essentially, i need to hire experts to do that. so it doesn’t really matter if i’m downthe street, or i’m across the country, if it’s a property over in atlanta, i can havea home inspector go and check it out, and

e-mail me the report. i can have several contractorsgo out and take a look at it. it doesn’t really make a difference wherei’m sitting when i’m on the phone with them or getting their e-mails. mad fientist: that makes a lot of sense. howdo you go about finding which markets you want to look into further? joe: i have a number of different criteriabased on—essentially, i like to describe it as, if you picture one of those bad 90smovies where the criminal calls up the fbi to taunt them, and the fbi is like, “tracethat call,” and it shows a giant map of the united states, and it zooms in on a state,and then it zooms in on a city, and then it

zooms in on a neighborhood block, and they’relike, “he’s at the payphone on 24th and 52nd,” or whatever, that’s what i do.i start with a big geographic area, and zoom in based on starting with broad factors like,“how is the landlord/tenant laws in this state? what does the employment look likein this state? are they adding jobs?” you want your tenants to be employed to bemaking good money. is this a place that’s going downhill or is this a place that’simproving, that’s on the upswing? so, look at demographic reports and job growth,that sort of thing, median income. and then i’ll look at what the prices inthe area, and get down to, “okay, i really like this particular city. now, let me godown to the neighborhood level. let me talk

to different property managers in the area.let me talk to other real estate investors, and find out what are the best areas withinthat area to invest in.” mad fientist: wow, that’s fantastic. andyou’re all self-taught. you guys just trial-and-error, just took the plunge in 2007, and then justhave been learning along the way. is that the case? joe: yes, lots of reading real estate books,lots of attending different real estate meet-ups and things like that. i’d say it’s a thing where there is somuch information out there, starting with a couple of solid books to give you a basicoverview, and then seeing where you want to

go because there are lots of different areasin real estate. there are flips, there’s buying a hold, and there are so many differentways to purchase wholesale and auctions, tax auctions and just probate. there are so manydifferent things that it feels overwhelming at first. so, just starting with the basics of, here’sa book on how to buy properties for rent. there’s a thread on the mmm forums. in thereal estate section of the forums, there’s a stickied thread right at the top that’slike “recommended real estate books.” if anyone is listening and wants to know like,“where do i start?” i have a list of books of like, “here’s what i would recommendyou read first.”

mad fientist: i’ll link to that as wellin the show notes to the mmm forum. that’s perfect. and you guys are mainly single familyhouse buy-and-hold, is that right? joe: yes. we’ve flipped a couple of propertiesthat were bigger, but all our rentals are single families. mad fientist: that’s cool. is there anystandout book for that sort of strategy because it seems like a great strategy for peoplethat are wanting financial independence, to build a bunch of assets that then just giveyou a bunch of monthly income, which would be great. joe: the number one book i recommend is called“building wealth one house at a time.”

and it’s just very straightforward. it’slike reading jim collins’ book for stock market investing, but for real estate. it’s very clear language. it’s very like,“here’s exactly what you need to do.” it’s not overly complex.at some point, once you get those basics, you’re going to want to move beyond to moreadvanced concepts, but that’s just the perfect beginner book in my mind. mad fientist: perfect! thanks very much forthat. that’s great. obviously, things are much different now than they were back in2007. are you still purchasing properties? are you still finding some good opportunitiesin certain parts of the country, or have you

slowed down as far as acquisition goes andyou’re just maintaining the cash flow that’s now coming in? joe: we’ve mostly stopped. ali: we retired. joe: yes, we retired. we also invested—ourportfolio is very real estate-heavy. and so now, with all our extra cash flow, i’m dumpinga lot more into equities, index funds and trying to diversify a little to basicallybuild up a second […] via stock market investments. mad fientist: that’s probably a great idea.there’s a good quote, i forgot where i stumbled on it, you had said that real estate is likethrowing lighter fluid on your fire planes,

which is a good, nice, little quote. so that’s definitely what you attribute,obviously, the rapid—going from zero net worth to then retired. it would be hard todo that, i think, with just equities alone. you would have to have a huge savings rateto accomplish that. but you guys just killed it in five— joe: we did have a huge savings rate. i thinkit was around 75%. but even so, it probably would have taken another few years. it definitelysped up our time to retirement. i was on another podcast that hopefully, iwon’t steal your readers over to this other podcast—listeners, i said readers. but ifthey’re interested in this topic, i’ve

been on the radical personal finance podcastwith joshua sheats a couple of times. one of them was discussing just the idea of, “shouldi use real estate to get to early retirement or should i invest in stocks?” and the prosand cons of each. it goes into some of the downsides of realestate, and then some of the upsides in terms of early retirement. it has some huge benefitsfor an early retiree in terms of sequence or returns risk, and things like that. butwe spent an hour-plus talking about that. and we, obviously, you and i, won’t havetime to go into that right now. so maybe you could add that in the show notes, and anyonewho’s interested like, “maybe i want to look into real estate for early retirement,”i think they’d be interested in listening

to that. mad fientist: absolutely! i love joshua’spodcast. i’m more than happy to link over to that. that sounds exactly the next logicalprogression of people who are interested to then really dive deep into it. joe: and they’ll probably hear me repeata few of the things i said here like zooming in on an area because i use that analogy.but they’ll hear two minutes of repeat content, and quite a bit of other stuff. mad fientist: perfect! thanks. now, that wouldbe in the show notes as well. so you hit your number, and then you guys retired, and thenyou guys have been doing some really exciting

stuff ever since you quit your jobs. so you guys left last year, and you startedhiking at the el camino de santiago. is that right? ali: well, first of all, we didn’t actuallyhit our numbers. it’s hard to know how much we need when we’re going to be traveling,and we never really lived on the road. and having a baby, we don’t know how much that’sgoing to cost. so we have made-up numbers, and decided thatwe were going to need to work so many years to hit those made-up numbers. and then weretired a year early anyway because i was overworking […]do all those things.so there’s that.

mad fientist: and how’s that been? haveyou felt that was the right call, or would you wish […]? ali: oh, yeah, that was the right call. mad fientist: that’s good. i think a lotof people stick around for a bit too long, and then put it off for too long, when really,i think they’d be more than fine if they just took the plunge even if they don’tfeel ready for it. so that’s great that you did and it worked out great. ali: yes, we always figured, you could alwaysdo side gigs. i write a little bit. i write romance novels.

mad fientist: you just recently got published,right? ali: yes, my second book is coming out injanuary. mad fientist: that’s awesome! congratulations.so did all that happen after you quit, or was that something you were working on priorto? ali: in order for us to retire a year early,joe and i made a deal that i would start writing, and see if i could get published, and thenbe able to go off early, to know that we had that. and i did, so that was part of the bargain. mad fientist: that’s awesome! that’s agreat strategy because i know, at least (i’ve only been jobless for the last 2 1/2 months),it’s easy to not do the things that you

think you’re going to do before you quitbecause you have all the time in the world. it’s easy to just put things off, and waitanother day to start something. but that’s an excellent strategy, to actuallytake the plunge a year early and force yourself to do some of these things that, in all likelihood,will earn money, but are actually challenging. you may put off a few if you leave it untilafter you’re fully set. that’s awesome. so you’re on your secondbook now. that’s great. so you’re still enjoying it as much now that it’s sort oflike a job? ali: it can be hard to get started writingbecause annabel, our baby around and everything. you just feel like, “i don’t have timeto write. i’m doing this thing or i’m

napping or we’re going out and seeing stuff.”but then once i get into it, it’s fun. i giggle to myself as i write because it’sromance, and it’s ridiculous to write. joe: and the next thing is we don’t needthe money. it’s for fun. i think that’s the best part of making money in early retirement—youcan do it if it sounds like fun, but otherwise, you can just not do that. if i don’t feel like doing this, then it’slike, “alright! then i just won’t do it.” mad fientist: i know, exactly. i just gotan e-mail from somebody who wanted me to advertise on mad fientist or something. and he laidout how many thousands of dollars i could be earning every month because i said i’llarrange a call with him just to hear what

his company is all about, but when i get backin january— but he’s like, “but look, if we don’ttalk now, then you’re missing out on all these thousands of dollars, all these monthsthat you’re not talking to me.” and i’m just thinking that’s fine. i do not needthose thousands of dollars. and i’m probably not going to be too interested anyway. so it’s like, “well, i’m not going totake a time out of my time here in mexico just to chat on the phone with some salespitch.” i completely agree. it’s a completely differentmindset. joe: i think that last word you said, mindset,is such the key because i’m sure there are

people listening to this, maybe less thanthe average population, but people who just don’t understand the concept of why wouldyou turn it down? it’s still money that you can earn with very little work. the point is, there’s still a little bitof work, and i don’t need it. and that concept of enough is just such a big thing to realizelike more money is not going to make me happier, but the extra amount of work will take awayfrom the time that i have with my wife or kids, or doing this thing that i actuallyreally want to do. so it’s more money, yes, but it still hasa cost. mad fientist: i completely agree. it’s actuallystill something i struggle with. for instance,

i’m currently re-designing mad fientista bit, and with the re-design, i’m going to take away all the ads because i never likedthem. i don’t know what they are half the time.they could be advertising something that i don’t believe in. they make the site lookstupid and terrible. so i’m planning on taking it away. but still, just turning thisoff this income source—and it’s not that much, it’s a few hundred bucks a month.but it’s still a tough decision because our whole lives have been spent building upto this moment and focusing on money so much that it is hard to just flick that switch. but it’s definitely something i’m gettingbetter at. i think it takes practice to get

to that point. joe: yes, absolutely. mad fientist: so yes, we’ll jump back intoyou guys, and see what you’ve been up to since you both quit because it’s definitelybeen a lot of exciting stuff. so can you just talk about quitting, and then what you’vebeen up to since? ali: so we retired in june of 2015. we didsummer school, and then we had to pack up everything, basically sell off everything,toss it to goodwill, whatever. joe: donate it, yes. ali: empty out our 400sq. ft. apart and leavevegas. we did all that.

joe: so we got all our stuff down to justone backpack each, and then we have a box of mementos— ali: our wedding. joe: —our wedding album, and that sort ofstuff, in our parents’ garage. mad fientist: if anyone out there hasn’tdone something like that, that’s the best way to never want to buy anything ever again.i don’t know about you guys, but it’s such a traumatic, stressful, awful experience,trying to get down to two boxes that you never want to accumulate anything again. is that how it was for you guys?

ali: it felt so good every time i handed stuffto the people at goodwill, and just feel like i never have to look at that again. it’sno longer on my plate. it’s over. joe: it’s just so freeing to be like, “idon’t own things.” it’s nice. ali: there were a couple of things that gettingrid of it was a little sad at the moment, like our christmas tree that we bought whenwe were 19. joe: we had a little fake 3 ft. christmastree that we put up every year and stuff. ali: and that was a bummer to finally getrid of that. but then once it’s gone, you’re like, “now, i don’t have that sittingunder our bed forever.” mad fientist: i just took pictures of everythingthat i was sentimental about, but there’s

no way i want to keep for the rest of my life.that seemed to work out well because then i could still look at it and think of it ifi need to but i don’t have a big christmas tree somewhere. ali: exactly, yes. we did the same thing.so then we got rid of everything except for that one little tube and our two backpacks.and then we headed out to spain. basically, we started in southern france,and we did the camino, which is a 500-mile walk across the top of spain. mad fientist: how was that? joe: and ali was in her second trimester pregnancy,by the way, at this point.

mad fientist: no way. that’s crazy. howdid it go? ali: it was hard. it’s walking, and yetit’s walking pretty a far way, but you’re like, “but, i walk. we’re fairly activepeople. we’re pretty young.” and so we thought it wasn’t going to be that hard.and then we got there. and the first day, you climb over a mountain,and you have to do in order to get to the one place where you can stop for the night.and it was so hard. i just did not see it coming. mad fientist: did you get used to it, or wasit just hard day after day, and you didn’t really get into a rhythm?

ali: the first week in particular for me wasreally tough, just trying to get used to it, like waking up early and packing up your littlebackpack and stuff. and then walking to the next place, and then having to unpack yourstuff, and wash your clothes in a sink, and hang them up to dry, and try to find someplace to eat. it was a lot harder than i thought. but joe was super gung ho. he’s like, “no,this is great!” and so i got with the program. i managed topull it off. he was like, “if you really don’t want to do it, you don’t have to.” mad fientist: but you finished it, and you’reglad you did? ali: yes. and now, every once in a while,i’m like, “hey, i did that.” when you

get to the end, you get this piece of paperthat is written in the original latin from the pilgrimage that people have been doingfor the past thousand years, basically, from the catholic church thing that you did this.and i have that. mad fientist: nice, and you won’t be givingthat away to goodwill anytime soon. ali: no. joe: i think the most interesting part aboutit for me is—so your body adjusts after about a week, and it’s no big deal physically.i did, about 20 days in, get some really shin splints that i just had to walk through. butother than that, your body does adjust, and it’s fine.

the hardest part, sort of, after that period,turns out to be the mental difficulty of the idea that i have 20 more days of getting upand walking for most of the day with my bag on my back, and then getting a meal and settlingin, and getting up and doing it again the next day and the next day. and i’m goingto keep doing this when i could hop on a bus, and be there in about four hours. there’s always those clich㩠quotes abouthow it’s about the journey, not the destination. but with this sort of thing, it has to bebecause if it’s about the destination, you would just hop on a bus, and go there, andyou’d be there in the final city of santiago. we have the money to take a bus ride. we havethe ability. there’s nothing stopping us

from just hopping on and being there tonight. and instead, it’s going to take us 20 moredays of walking. why are we putting ourselves through this?and so, it goes past the physical thing where it’s not really physically challenging anymore,but it’s mentally challenging. am i just going to keep doing this for really no realpurpose other than the challenge of it, other than the journey? and so that to me was interesting about it. mad fientist: wow, that’s fantastic. you’redefinitely excited about doing it, and you’re happy you’ve done it as well, joe?

joe: yes, definitely, and just having completedit. i’ve always been lazy and self-indulgent. one of my worries going into early retirementwas, “well, am i going to sit around all day? am i not going to get much done becausei can?” and so that to me was a cool challenge to kick off early retirement because i wantedto force myself to do something difficult, so that i know i can.it sounds a little silly, but that was my thinking. mad fientist: that’s great. and ever sincethen, you’ve just been on the road as well. so can you talk a little bit about where elseyou’ve traveled since then? ali: we went to portugal after that. thenwe went to germany. we went to great britain,

and stayed in london for a little bit. wewent to marrakech, morocco, spent about a month in croatia. and then we went over to istanbul. we werethere for three months. joe: so, that’s where we had annabel. wehad been mostly to western europe before on a backpacking trip we did one summer. onesummer, we didn’t teach summer school, and we backpacked through europe for about twomonths. and so we’ve been to most of western europe.so we wanted to hit a lot more of eastern europe. we saw croatia, and turkey, and thatsort of thing. ali: and then post-annabel, we went up andwe did prague, and we did krakow in athens.

mad fientist: very cool! and how was it havingannabel in turkey? any why turkey? ali: we knew we were going to be in the europearea because of the camino. and so we figured out if there was a location nearby that hadgood health care without being too expensive, and that we could stay for a few months becausea lot of places, you can only stay for one month, or if you’re in most of the europeancountries, you can only be in them three months all together for all the countries. joe: the whole schengen area. ali: so, that narrowed down our possible areasa lot. and then we just, at some point, hit on istanbul as being a good idea. we wereable to e-mail around and find a hospital

with a doctor that spoke english, which wasuseful. joe: the doctor was the only one who spokeenglish. that made it a little difficult at the time. actually, when ali started goinginto labor, and we texted, it was at 11:30 at night. i texted the doctor on what’shappened and was like, “she’s feeling these weird contraction things.”and so the doctor was like, “yes, go over to the hospital, and the nurse will checkher out and will let me know what’s going on.” and so we go over there, and the nurse doesn’tspeak english or whatever, but she texted it out. we had to mime what we needed.

she checks ali out, calls the doctor, andhands the phone over to ali. and the doctor is like, “yes, you’re going into labor.they’re going to admit you, and i’ll be over there in a bit.” ali: so i asked a question, and then she hadto hand the phone over to the nurse. we were basically translating through our doctor onthe phone. joe: so we did that and we got admitted andwe go up to the little room they give us to wait until we need to go into the deliveryroom. and then some people come and are motioning for me to come. and i don’t know what’sgoing on, and i’m like, “all right.” so i go with them, and they take me down.

and of course, when you check into a hospital,you need to fill out paperwork, sign in and everything. so they hand me a stack of about20 or 30 pages of stuff, but it’s all in turkish, and i don’t speak any turkish.and they don’t speak any english. so they’re just pointing at it, and i’mlike, “whatever.” i assumed this is all normal. and so i’m just signing, and initialing.i have no idea what it says. i’m just signing away my firstborn and whatever.so, that was quite the experience, trying to get all that done. and meanwhile, ali’sgoing into a superfast labor. so i get up there 30 minutes later, and it’s already,“well, it’s time. we’re going.” it was a fun experience.

ali: […] how many centimeters tall i am. joe: we don’t speak turkish, and so theymime how tall. and we don’t speak metric. ali: and so after all of our paperwork there,it’s just completely a mess. mad fientist: that’s crazy. joe: but it all worked out. people worry aboutwhen we first mentioned, “hey, we’re going to be having a baby in istanbul.” some friends,family and stuff, they’re a little worried. our opinion is people have babies all overthe world all the time. this isn’t a new thing, so i’m not too worried about it.it will all work out. ali: my mom had gotten to istanbul the daybefore. and so she was back at our apartment

and had been there for less than 24 hours.joe texted her that i am going into labor. so my mom has to go out in the rain at midnight,trying to find a taxi in a country where she speaks—and she couldn’t even lock thedoor because she doesn’t know how to do that. she just walks out with a us$20 bill and she’sjust like, “here’s the name of the hospital” on her phone. and she’s like, “pleaseget me there.” and it all worked fine. joe: you get fun adventures like that whenyou’re willing to go overseas and just try things. mad fientist: that’s amazing. that’s agreat lesson. i think a lot of people, especially

in the states, are just so scared of doinganything, let alone having a baby in istanbul. did you guys pay cash or how did that workout? joe: we used a credit card, but essentially,cash. ali: it’s like four-grand […] joe: it was around four-grand for basicallythe birth, the two days in the hospital, and then all the check-ups before and after, post-check-upsand everything. we calculated it. for us as teachers withour health care, it seemed like it was going to cost about five-grand to have the babyin the states. between our deductibles and 20% co-pay and all this stuff, it was goingto cost us about five-grand to have the baby

in the states with good health insurance.or we could go overseas and pay the whole thing ourselves for four-grand. it was like,“that’s silly.” mad fientist: i interviewed mike and lauren,and they had a baby down in costa rica. and i think it was pretty similar, around fourgrand for the whole thing. and they said it was such a nice experience. i think the babyhas a costa rican citizenship. is that the same with annabel? does she haveturkish citizenship? how does that work? ali: no. north and south america does thata lot, does the citizenship at birth. joe: so canada, u.s., mexico, most of southamerica. but pretty much everywhere else in the world got rid of that.

ali: i think the only other place actuallyis cambodia. joe: yes, but nowhere else in asia or europedoes that anymore. they used to. i think, 10, 12 years ago, they got rid of that citizenshipby birth idea. ali: she doesn’t get anything from it. shejust gets to say that her birth place is istanbul. mad fientist: …which is pretty cool. that’sa really good story when she gets older. that’s cool. so what are the plans from here on out? soyou’re in cambodia now, and i know you guys are heading to thailand next. joe: yes, we’re going to thailand. there’sa paper lantern festival. i don’t know if

you ever saw the movie tangled. mad fientist: no, but i know the lantern festivalthat you’re talking about. joe: you should. it’s good. do you not watchdisney movies anymore just because you’re an adult? mad fientist: i’ll take a look at it. i’llput it on my to-do list. joe: it’s not amazing. if you don’t watchdisney movies, that shouldn’t be the one that you watch. but you should just watchthem all because they’re still really good. so, there’s this paper lantern festival.basically, they light up all these lanterns made of paper, but they have this little candlesin them, and the hot air makes them float

in the air, fly up. and so they just launchthousands of these, and it looks really pretty. it’s this big religious ceremony here innovember. so we’re going to chiang mai for the whole month of november, and we’re goingto see that. luckily, we have parents who are supportiveand want to come visit us. so they’re coming. at christmas, we’re going to bali, indonesia,to hang out with them. and then after that, we don’t really know.we plan month by month and see what we want to do. we’re thinking eventually, we’llprobably get an rv and tour around canada and mexico. we’re staying out of the states for nowjust because it’s so much more expensive

to live there with the health care, and thennot being able to exclude any income. it would probably cost us around $10,000 more in taxesand health insurance to live in the states. when you’re only spending $20,000 or $30,000for no discernible benefit to be like, “no, i’m just paying extra,” even with everythingelse, food and housing and everything else cost the same, we’re suddenly spending $10,000for no real benefits. it’s hard to do for now, but we’ll probablyeventually bite the bullet, and head back for a while. mad fientist: so you’re doing foreign incomeexclusion, i presume? joe: yes, just on all the extra side gig stuff,ali’s writing and stuff like that.

mad fientist: and then for insurance, you’rejust doing travel insurance? joe: yes. so we have an international healthcare plan that costs about a thousand for the year for the three of us. and it’s mostlyfor catastrophic stuff. we haven’t actually used it, but it’s there. it’s more ofa feel good safety net. but we just pay everything out-of-pocket. it’s real cheap. one of the downsides of real estate is wedon’t have awesome tax in early retirement the way a lot of early retirees do who canjust use 0% dividends and capital gains when they’re in the 15% bracket or less.real estate is all unearned income taxed at a normal rate. and so we don’t qualify forany affordable care act subsidies or anything.

so it will cost us about $6000 for insurancein the states versus a thousand for overseas, and then around $5000 or $6000 in taxes, extrataxes that we’d have to pay. mad fientist: that’s the same situationi’m in. i was just in the states for fincon, but then i had to hurry up and get out becausei needed to do get the physical presence test, and just be out of the country for 330 days,so i feel your pain on that one. joe: and we’d want to be traveling anyway.i think our ideal time would probably be traveling internationally 9 or 10 months a year, andbeing back home 2 to 3 months. instead, we have to limit it back to being in the statesfor only a month. it’s not a huge deal for us, but it is abummer when it’s like, “go see ali’s

family for two weeks. rush up. go see my familyfor two weeks. all right, we’re out.” eventually, we’ll just bite the bullet.we’ll pay the extra money and go spend a lot more time probably touring around theu.s. in an rv or something. but for now, we’re enjoying—there are too many other placesin the world we want to see now to want to just limit ourselves there. mad fientist: have you guys got tired of travelingat all? i know it is a tiring thing to always be somewhere else. it sounds like you’respending big chunks of time in places which definitely helps. but has it been differentthan you expected it to be? ali: at times, for the most part, it’s beenjust awesome. walking around prague was probably

one of the happiest months i’ve had, justgetting to see the beautiful architecture and everything and just thinking, “i neverwant to stop traveling. this is amazing.” and then we were in kuala lumpur last month.and our house set-up, our bnb wasn’t great. cooking was hard, and we weren’t near anybig supermarket, so trying to get the food i want to cook is hard. everything just getsa little difficult. and it’s really hot outside. so after a few weeks of that, i was like,“i’m getting a little stir crazy. i need to get someplace else where i can move arounda little bit more. and it feels a little easier.” but for the most part, our travels have beenreally amazing.

mad fientist: that’s good to hear. and earlyretirement in general, was it everything that you hoped it would be? ali: oh, yes. just not having to work—weboth loved our jobs. we both enjoyed teaching. but not teaching is just way better. not havingto do anything is just amazing. joe: i really liked teaching. and we actuallytalked about going back. in fact, ali just mentioned two or three days ago that she mightwant to teach again here—maybe next year, maybe the year after. but teaching is sucha fulfilling job. but also, we taught for eight years. and tome, eight years is long enough to do everything. even if you love teaching, which we did, wealso love travel, and we also love being home

with our kid all day.and so there are all these different things that it’s like, yes, we really enjoyed that,but we also want to go try other things too. so, early retirement, financial independencein general, just that ability to be like, “now, i want to focus my life on this aspect,”is incredible. mad fientist: that’s awesome. i usuallyend all my interviews with a question like, if you had one piece of advice for somebodywho wants to pursue financial independence, what would it be? joe: that’s a good question. and i knewyou were going to ask this because i listen to your other podcast. the funny thing is,every time at the end when you ask the person

that, i always think of something i want tosay. i always think of, “this is what my response would be to that question.”but every time, it’s different because it’s been a month or whatever since i listenedto your last one. and i listen, and then i’m like, “i would say this.” and then bya month later, my answer is like, “oh, but this is a really good tip.” and i’m sure some of your listeners arelike—i bet there are other people who would do that same thing because there are so manydifferent good tips and your podcast guests have had a bunch of really good tips. but the one that’s in my mind right nowis a quote by john stewart mill. and i’m

not going to nail the quote exactly. i don’thave it word for word, so i’m roughly paraphrasing. essentially, he said something like: “i have learned to seek my happiness bylimiting my desires rather than in attempting to fulfill them.”and so basically, he says, instead of trying to be happy by getting all this stuff, i wantto be happy just having what i have and limiting my desires. this is simplicity and that sortof thing. for me, financial independence was reallyeasy to get because we were happy just living in our fairly small place and eating at homeand just being efficient with how we spent money. and so our high savings rate was justbecause we enjoyed simplicity.

and we didn’t have to cut our budget .wedidn’t have to deprive ourselves. if you can cultivate that mindset of, “i’mjust going to limit my desires rather than trying to satisfy myself with all this differentstuff,” i think that really helps you become financially independent because 1) you don’tneed to spend as much money while you’re earning and you can save a bunch, and then2) you don’t need as much when you’re retired. ali: so many people would always say thingsabout how we sacrifice so much to get to this point. we’re constantly sacrificing. butthere was no point in our lives in las vegas that we felt like it was a sacrifice to livein a small apartment, to only have one car.

we cultivated a concept of gratitude abouteverything. and once you’re grateful for everything you have, to try to get more seemssilly. when you’re grateful that you have this one car that i got when i was 16, justbeing so excited about that fact that i have this car, it’s like we don’t need to geta brand new car or that we have this place to live, or we have these places that we canspend time together. we don’t need all that other extra on top of it that costs money. mad fientist: that’s a huge, huge point.and yes, that’s something i’ve been thinking a lot about over the last few weeks just becausei have a buddy back in scotland and he’s the complete opposite with money. but he’sreally interested in what i’ve done.

he’s the guy that designed my logo, so he’sworked with me in mad fientist stuff and things like that. he’s a really good designer andthings like that. it’s just so hard to get across becauseevery time he sees us, he thinks we’re depriving ourselves and we’re just doing it just becausewe’re cheap or we’re frugal or we’re just miserable because of it.i was trying to think of a good way to explain to him that it’s not that at all. it’slimiting ourselves actually makes us happier. and when we do experience something that weonly do so often, it’s that much more enjoyable than if we did it all the time. ali: we both have high earners and high spendersin our families. and so yes, they see us,

and they’re like, “what are you doing?i need the space. i need the thing. i need the stuff. i need the expensive restaurants.” we just say, “we’re just happy with whatwe have and each other. we are constantly amazed at the world.” so it seems sillyto spend all this money to try to make things better when we can walk around together andjust be like, “oh, my god. it’s a beautiful evening. we’re so lucky to get to walk aroundoutside and have a sunset.” we don’t need to go spend money at a restaurantand a movie, when you’ve got each other and […] mad fientist: seriously, ali, that’s yourtip as well, you would agree with joe on that

one? ali: yes, definitely about being gratefulfor what you have, and just understanding enough, and just cultivating that in yourlife. mad fientist: awesome. well, this has beenfantastic. if people want to get in touch with you, what’s the best way? obviously,they can reach you on the forums, but you also have a blog, adenturingalong.com thatpeople can maybe get in touch through? what’s the best? joe: people kept telling us, “we want tofollow along with your adventures and your travels. you should set up a blog.” andso we finally, reluctantly, did.

it doesn’t really have much content, andi don’t know when or if that will change because blogging feels like something we shoulddo, but then it’s also one of those things that’s like you need to get motivated towrite these posts. and there’s all this other stuff that we’re doing too. so yes, you can go check it out, adventuringalong.com.sign up for the mailing list, if you’re interested in following along. so if we everupdate it, we’ll send out an e-mail saying, “you can come check out stuff.” but really, you can e-mail us through there.if you actually want to get in touch, e-mailing me is a good way or go on the mmm forums.i’m on there all the time.

feel free to reach out. i love chatting aboutfinancial independence and real estate, teaching any of those things. definitely, i spend alot of time talking about that online. mad fientist: that’s awesome. and i’mexcited to check out the radical personal finance podcast as well with you. i don’ttend to listen to any other interviews before i do an interview because i don’t want itto influence my questions at all, but it definitely sounds like a great carry-on from this, especiallyif you’re interested in real estate for fi. joe: definitely. mad fientist: cool, guys. well, have a greattime in siem reap. it’s such a fantastic

place. and i really appreciate you takinga whole hour out of your exciting day to chat with me. it’s been great, so i really appreciateit. i look forward to hopefully seeing you guys at camp mustache next year, and maybebefore actually somewhere in southeast asia or something. ali: yes, that would be great. thanks forhaving us on. joe: good talking to you, brandon. mad fientist: thanks, guys. bye.

property auction house kent

captioning provided by caption associates www.captionassociates.com >> the following program is a production of pioneer public production of pioneer public television. television. "your legislators" is made "your legislators" is made possible in part by the generous possible in part by the generousfinancial support of mape financial support of mape members making minnesota clean members making minnesota clean waters, safe communities, waters, safe communities, quality education and veterans

quality education and veterans care happen. care happen. we work hard for minnesotans. we work hard for minnesotans. live from st. paul we welcome live from st. paul we welcome you to another session of "your you to another session of "your legislators." legislators." a roundtable discussion a roundtable discussion featuring state law m.a.c.ors ms featuring state law m.a.c.ors msprepared to answer your

prepared to answer your questions and discuss important questions and discuss important issues affecting the citizens of issues affecting the citizens ofminnesota. minnesota. >> now, here is your moderate are for tonight's program, barry are for tonight's program, barryanderson. anderson. >> barry: good evening and >> barry: good evening and welcome to "your legislators." welcome to "your legislators." we are delighted you have given

we are delighted you have given up an hour of your time to join up an hour of your time to join with us in this conversation with us in this conversation about the issues of the day. about the issues of the day. we have as always a we have as always a distinguished panel of guests. distinguished panel of guests. this is your program and we this is your program and we remind you to call in with remind you to call in with questions or send them in questions or send them in electronically and the

electronically and the instructions will appear on the instructions will appear on the screen. screen. we begin by introducing the we begin by introducing the distinguished panel of guests distinguished panel of guests who will help us with your who will help us with your questions and hence the catch in questions and hence the catch inname to our program this evening name to our program this evening"your legislators." "your legislators." we turn to my immediate left

we turn to my immediate left from district 4 a, from district 4 a, representative ben lien. representative ben lien. tell our viewers about yourself. tell our viewers about yourself.>> rep. lien: thank you, i am in >> rep. lien: thank you, i am inmy second term from district 4 my second term from district 4 a. a. serving on higher education serving on higher education committee and property tax committee and property tax division of the full tax

division of the full tax committee and the greater committee and the greater minnesota jobs policy committee. minnesota jobs policy committee.>> barry: joining us from twin >> barry: joining us from twin valley district four, a frequent valley district four, a frequentguest, ken eken. guest, ken eken. he might be a con at this time he might be a con at this time aconstituent o aconstituent o yours. yours. unruly?

unruly? >> sen. eken: calls about snow >> sen. eken: calls about snow removal. removal. that kind of stuff. that kind of stuff. ben and i share the same ben and i share the same district and i represent district and i represent moorhead and clay county and all moorhead and clay county and allof norman county and a portion of norman county and a portion of becker county including of becker county including detroit lakes.

detroit lakes. my first term in the senate. my first term in the senate. fourth year but served in the fourth year but served in the house for ten years and i do house for ten years and i do serve on the capital investment serve on the capital investment committee and higher education committee and higher education and health and human services on and health and human services onthe election sub committee and the election sub committee and jobs and economic development. jobs and economic development. >> barry: all right.

>> barry: all right. we then turn to senator torrey we then turn to senator torrey westrom from district 12, elbow westrom from district 12, elbow lake. lake. senator westrom has been with us senator westrom has been with usmany times and goes back a long many times and goes back a long way with the program. way with the program. we are delighted, senator we are delighted, senator westrom you are with us. westrom you are with us. tell the viewers about yourself.

tell the viewers about yourself.>> sen. westrom: like kent, i am >> sen. westrom: like kent, i amjust a freshman in the senate. just a freshman in the senate. we can use the excuse the rest we can use the excuse the rest of this year. of this year. i live in elbow lake. i live in elbow lake. district 12 is comprised of district 12 is comprised of eight counties from the dakota eight counties from the dakota borders down to albany. borders down to albany. those are some -- it as big

those are some -- it as big area. area. a lot of rural areas. a lot of rural areas. and most of the small and most of the small business -- i am also a small business -- i am also a small business owner in elbow lake and business owner in elbow lake andmarried and my wife and i have married and my wife and i have three children. three children. >> barry: you do have a day job >> barry: you do have a day job and you practice law as well.

and you practice law as well. >> sen. westrom: i do, judge, >> sen. westrom: i do, judge, and that is what i do part-time and that is what i do part-time when we are not in session and when we are not in session and keeps me busy. keeps me busy. >> barry: this is good. >> barry: this is good. the question of legal services the question of legal services to greater minnesota is an issue to greater minnesota is an issueperhaps we should have a longer perhaps we should have a longer discussion about at some point.

discussion about at some point. it parallels other issues that it parallels other issues that greater minnesota has. greater minnesota has. we are always grateful for the we are always grateful for the lawyers who work not only in the lawyers who work not only in thebig cities but also in the big cities but also in the little cities another minnesota. little cities another minnesota.thank you for that. thank you for that. >> barry: o >> barry: o >> sen. westrom: on the legal

>> sen. westrom: on the legal side, elbow lake became a new side, elbow lake became a new seat to judge amy dahl appointed seat to judge amy dahl appointedby governor dayton. by governor dayton. congratulations to her. congratulations to her. and certainly we are glad to and certainly we are glad to keep the seat in rural minnesota keep the seat in rural minnesotaand that is always a concern and that is always a concern that seats go away and you have that seats go away and you have to drive further for justice.

to drive further for justice. >> barry: very good. >> barry: very good. and this final, last, but and this final, last, but certainly not least from certainly not least from district 16 b in hanska. district 16 b in hanska. representative paul torkelson. representative paul torkelson. tell us about yourself. tell us about yourself. >> rep. torkelson: i am in my >> rep. torkelson: i am in my fourth term in the minnesota fourth term in the minnesota house.

house. both senator with us tonight both senator with us tonight were house trained and both were house trained and both spent some time in the house spent some time in the house before moving up to the senator before moving up to the senator and that is good news for us. and that is good news for us. >> they kicked me out of the >> they kicked me out of the house. house. >> rep. torkelson: i serve >> rep. torkelson: i serve district b.

district b. >> senator wa bach tells he i am >> senator wa bach tells he i amnot house trained. not house trained. >> rep. torkelson: i will tell >> rep. torkelson: i will tell him differently. him differently. one of the staffers in appleton one of the staffers in appleton didn't even know that hanska was didn't even know that hanska wasa down. a down. it as great little city in the it as great little city in the southern brown county.

southern brown county. i do serve on the most i do serve on the most committees of any legislateor in committees of any legislateor inthe place, i believe. the place, i believe. i have fix sill committees. i have fix sill committees. top of the line capital top of the line capital investment. investment. teaindealing with the bonding b. teaindealing with the bonding b.happy to be here and looking happy to be here and looking forward to the conversation.

forward to the conversation. >> barry: i think we will before >> barry: i think we will beforethe program is out this evening the program is out this evening we will have a little discussion we will have a little discussionabout bonding because this is about bonding because this is the lim time of the legislative the lim time of the legislative session where we have that session where we have that action on the bonding topics. action on the bonding topics. let's start with questions have let's start with questions have viewers.

viewers. 20two came in right away. 20two came in right away. both concerned about the killing both concerned about the killingof dogs and body grip traps and of dogs and body grip traps and if anything can or should be if anything can or should be done about that,. done about that,. >> one viewer references senate >> one viewer references senate bill 1325 and the viewer from bill 1325 and the viewer from fairbauls is concerned. fairbauls is concerned. what do you you know about that

what do you you know about that issue and what do you think issue and what do you think might happen in this session? might happen in this session? >> sen. westrom: it is tough to >> sen. westrom: it is tough to say. say. i haven't seen it coming through i haven't seen it coming throughcommittee and it is one of those committee and it is one of thosevery contentious issues. very contentious issues. the trappers are concerned about the trappers are concerned aboutlosing their rights and, you

losing their rights and, you know, sport of trapping. know, sport of trapping. and so they resist a lot of the and so they resist a lot of the changes. changes. but the other side, with, you but the other side, with, you know, pets and dogs and hunting know, pets and dogs and hunting dogs and people that are just dogs and people that are just out enjoying the outdoors and out enjoying the outdoors and their dog gets caught in a trap their dog gets caught in a trap is a very tragic event if it

is a very tragic event if it happens to you. happens to you. and so, that is kind of where and so, that is kind of where the dead loc lock is on i don'tw the dead loc lock is on i don'twthat i have heard enough that i have heard enough conversation of compromise that conversation of compromise that would find a solution this year would find a solution this year unless both parties can come unless both parties can come together a bit more. together a bit more. >> barry: representative

>> barry: representative torkelson one of our viewers torkelson one of our viewers from minneapolis references from minneapolis references house bill 1555 body grip trap house bill 1555 body grip trap bill affecting dogs. bill affecting dogs. what are you hearing about the what are you hearing about the issue? issue? >> rep. torkelson: i happen to >> rep. torkelson: i happen to be on an e-mail list and they be on an e-mail list and they were encouraging people on a

were encouraging people on a list to be cal calling in to the list to be cal calling in to theprogram tonight. program tonight. it is good that the folks are it is good that the folks are active and concerned about their active and concerned about theirdogs and it as real issue. dogs and it as real issue. -- it is a real issue. -- it is a real issue. not an easy one to solve. not an easy one to solve. i depend on trappers to keep i depend on trappers to keep some beaver espe especially outf

some beaver espe especially outfour small creeks and drainage our small creeks and drainage ditches. ditches. trappers are important. trappers are important. dogs are important. dogs are important. hunters are important. hunters are important. we haven't found the compromise we haven't found the compromise that works for everything. that works for everything. we will keep work on it. we will keep work on it. >> barry: representative lien?

>> barry: representative lien? >> rep. lien: i haven't heard to >> rep. lien: i haven't heard tomuch about the issue. much about the issue. i do get e-mails not too many i do get e-mails not too many from the constituents in from the constituents in moorhead and clay county. moorhead and clay county. i don't hear to much about it i don't hear to much about it from my s constituents and there from my s constituents and therewere bills introduced last were bills introduced last session to address this.

session to address this. i think people are having the i think people are having the conversation and learning more conversation and learning more about the issue and about the issue and understanding the issue both understanding the issue both from the sides as senator from the sides as senator westrom and representative westrom and representative torkelson have said, both the torkelson have said, both the concerns of hunters and trappers concerns of hunters and trappersand farmers.

and farmers. but then also, you know, the pet but then also, you know, the petowners and things and i think owners and things and i think hunters can find of -- kind of hunters can find of -- kind of fall into that category, too. fall into that category, too. ehave to be listening to all ehave to be listening to all sides of the issue and opinions sides of the issue and opinions on the matter. on the matter. and you know, it is a issue and you know, it is a issue progresses -- as the issue

progresses -- as the issue progresses and the session progresses and the session progresses we will see what sort progresses we will see what sortof compromise comes out. of compromise comes out. >> barry: senator eken. >> barry: senator eken. >> sen. eken: the trappers are >> sen. eken: the trappers are important and pets are important important and pets are importantas you said. as you said. we need to find a way to allow we need to find a way to allow the trapping to still tin but

the trapping to still tin but not at the expense of our pets. not at the expense of our pets. and that is a real issue. and that is a real issue. i think that there is some kind i think that there is some kind of compromise that we could find of compromise that we could findthat will minimize any damage that will minimize any damage that is caused by the trapping that is caused by the trapping that is being done out there. that is being done out there. but i do live on a fourth but i do live on a fourth generation family farm and there

generation family farm and thereis trapping out in our area. is trapping out in our area. and we also have a pet dog as and we also have a pet dog as well. well. so, we want to keep him safe. so, we want to keep him safe. so, hopefully we can find some so, hopefully we can find some kind of compromise. kind of compromise. >> barry: go ahead, senator >> barry: go ahead, senator westrom. westrom. >> sen. westrom: like

>> sen. westrom: like representative lien it seems representative lien it seems like i hear more from like i hear more from metropolitan residents that metropolitan residents that maybe go up north and have this maybe go up north and have this issue. issue. so it does seem to not be so it does seem to not be statewide with as great a statewide with as great a concern as i -- when i look over concern as i -- when i look overthe e-mails and calls that i

the e-mails and calls that i get, too. get, too. >> barry: i should mention that >> barry: i should mention that our viewer from fairbault our viewer from fairbault somebody maybe the comment about somebody maybe the comment aboutconcern taking the dog to open concern taking the dog to open spaces and the fewer was spaces and the fewer was concerned about taking her dog concerned about taking her dog to places where you might to places where you might encounter traps that you didn't

encounter traps that you didn't know were there. know were there. it is an issue. it is an issue. does anybody here have any sense does anybody here have any sensewhen or not this might see when or not this might see action in the session or likely action in the session or likely to be a next session kind of to be a next session kind of activity? activity? >> i don't know that we are >> i don't know that we are going to see a lot of action on

going to see a lot of action on this issue. this issue. tomorrow is the first deadline tomorrow is the first deadline for the legislature. for the legislature. we have a short session pretty we have a short session pretty compressed timeline. compressed timeline. so, you know, of course, the tax so, you know, of course, the taxbill and the capital investment bill and the capital investment bill i think is going to take up bill i think is going to take upa bulk of the time and attention

a bulk of the time and attentionthis session. this session. i will think, too, we have to i will think, too, we have to take a look at property rights take a look at property rights and things with that and making and things with that and making certain that people understand certain that people understand that you know you are going into that you know you are going intoopen land like that, other open land like that, other people's land like that you have people's land like that you haveto be conscious about that and

to be conscious about that and what those landowners are using what those landowners are using their land for. their land for. >> barry: well, we will no doubt >> barry: well, we will no doubthave the opportunity to revisit have the opportunity to revisit that question. that question. my sense is that does anyone my sense is that does anyone have any sense as to whether or have any sense as to whether or not there will be a vote on this not there will be a vote on thisbill this session?

bill this session? >> the fact that i haven't seen >> the fact that i haven't seen it on a committee agenda tells it on a committee agenda tells me that it is probably too short me that it is probably too shorta session to deal with this, you a session to deal with this, youknow. know. >> barry: um-h'm. >> barry: um-h'm. >> sen. westrom: heart-tugging >> sen. westrom: heart-tugging issue. issue. >> last year it was around and

>> last year it was around and if it didn't get traction last if it didn't get traction last year i heard there really hasn't year i heard there really hasn'tbeen any compromise between the been any compromise between the two groups and different groups. two groups and different groups.and so i think for the and so i think for the legislature they could spend legislature they could spend hours and hours of hearings and hours and hours of hearings and with no real good solution put with no real good solution put on the table.

on the table. and it is probably incumbent on and it is probably incumbent on both groups to figure out what both groups to figure out what would be reasonable and what would be reasonable and what would work and help in this would work and help in this situation. situation. and, then, you have got to and, then, you have got to convince over half of the convince over half of the legislature to do that. legislature to do that. i just don't think we are there

i just don't think we are there yet in a short session. yet in a short session. i think it would be tough to get i think it would be tough to getthrough. through. >> barry: half of 201 >> barry: half of 201 legislators? legislators? >> right. >> right. >> barry: move on. >> barry: move on. talk about bonding. talk about bonding. representative torkelson let's

representative torkelson let's pick on you. pick on you. you sit on the committee. you sit on the committee. tell the viewers where the tell the viewers where the bonding discussions are at and bonding discussions are at and if you would like to hazard a if you would like to hazard a guess as to where they might guess as to where they might wind up we would be happy to wind up we would be happy to hear that, too. hear that, too. >> rep. torkelson: this is my

>> rep. torkelson: this is my first time on the bonding first time on the bonding committee. committee. a steep learning curve and i am a steep learning curve and i am climbing it every day. climbing it every day. it has been an interesting time. it has been an interesting time.the bonding committee has the the bonding committee has the privilege of touring the state privilege of touring the state of minnesota. of minnesota. we spent, did five trips after

we spent, did five trips after summer to each corner of the summer to each corner of the state and the metro area and saw state and the metro area and sawa lot of projects. a lot of projects. for me the biggest impression for me the biggest impression was just how much the state of was just how much the state of minnesota already owns. minnesota already owns. whether it is a college whether it is a college building, or a road or a trail, building, or a road or a trail, or a state park, we own a lot of

or a state park, we own a lot ofstuff. stuff. and much of it is in need of not and much of it is in need of notjust repair but actually just repair but actually renovation. renovation. so, both the chairman of the so, both the chairman of the senate committee leroy stumpf senate committee leroy stumpf and i have and accessing the and i have and accessing the need. need. i don't have a lot of

i don't have a lot of representatives coming in my representatives coming in my office and pounding on my desk office and pounding on my desk and saying please put more and saying please put more preservation money. preservation money. >> barry: not enough. >> barry: not enough. >> rep. torkelson: people like >> rep. torkelson: people like to do things. to do things. it is if unto go to a ribbon you it is if unto go to a ribbon youthe cutting and build a new

the cutting and build a new building or a new trail but building or a new trail but preserving and taking care of preserving and taking care of the things we have is very the things we have is very important. important. both the senator chair and i are both the senator chair and i aretieing to emphasize that and we tieing to emphasize that and we will continue. will continue. it is not ease. it is not ease. it is a challenge.

it is a challenge. beyond that. beyond that. we have approximately 5 million we have approximately 5 million with a b billion dollars of with a b billion dollars of requests for bonding funds. requests for bonding funds. the size of the bonding bill the size of the bonding bill remains to be determine. remains to be determine. there is an $800 million bill there is an $800 million bill built into the forecast so that built into the forecast so that is kind of a starting point.

is kind of a starting point. the governor has proposed a the governor has proposed a $1.4 billion bonding bill that i $1.4 billion bonding bill that ihave introduced on his behalf in have introduced on his behalf inthe house. the house. so, the negotiations are just so, the negotiations are just really getting started as to the really getting started as to thecontent of the bill. content of the bill. as many people say to me, we as many people say to me, we have to eat our ri vegetables

have to eat our ri vegetables before we get our dessert so the before we get our dessert so thebonding bill is likely to be the bonding bill is likely to be thelast bill out of the chute last bill out of the chute because it is looked like as the because it is looked like as thedessert. dessert. >> barry: senator eken, what is >> barry: senator eken, what is your sh thoughts about the bondg your sh thoughts about the bondgbill. bill. >> sen. eken: imcautiously

>> sen. eken: imcautiously optimistic we will get a good optimistic we will get a good bonding bill. bonding bill. there are a lot of needs out there are a lot of needs out there as representative there as representative torkelson mentioned, $5 billion torkelson mentioned, $5 billion in requests out there. in requests out there. i am on the capital investment i am on the capital investment committee and was part of the committee and was part of the tours taking place this last

tours taking place this last fall and into the winter and we fall and into the winter and we saw a lot of very important saw a lot of very important projects being proposed and we projects being proposed and we were talking about asset were talking about asset preservation, for instance of preservation, for instance of the infrastructure of the public the infrastructure of the publicfacilities we have out there. facilities we have out there. as has already been stated, it as has already been stated, it is probably not the most

is probably not the most exciting subjects and probably exciting subjects and probably doesn't get as much attention as doesn't get as much attention asit deserves but we need to it deserves but we need to preserve the assets we as a preserve the assets we as a state and take care of what state and take care of what others have built up for us. others have built up for us. there are a lot of projects in there are a lot of projects in higher education. higher education. flood mitigation projects that

flood mitigation projects that need to be completed. need to be completed. projects that save us money and projects that save us money and help us excel in economic help us excel in economic prosperity. prosperity. these are all important these are all important projects. projects. a good time do it. a good time do it. the interest rates are still low the interest rates are still lowso you get a big bank for buck

so you get a big bank for buck so i am hopeful that we can take so i am hopeful that we can takeadvantage of that and there has advantage of that and there has been in more recent years we had been in more recent years we hadbonding bills that have fallen bonding bills that have fallen short of what we have normally short of what we have normally done and there has been a done and there has been a backlog of projects building up backlog of projects building up and i do think that we need to and i do think that we need to start digging into the backlog

start digging into the backlog of projects and make sure that of projects and make sure that we are again at the very least we are again at the very least maintaining the infrastructure maintaining the infrastructure that we have out there. that we have out there. i have got a lot of things i i have got a lot of things i have got in the bonding bill. have got in the bonding bill. a railroad grade separation, a a railroad grade separation, a railroad underpass in moorhead railroad underpass in moorhead that we are looking at,

that we are looking at, wastewater infrastructure, wastewater infrastructure, wastewater facilities ms. wastewater facilities ms. detroit lakes, projects at msum. detroit lakes, projects at msum.lots of projects out there. lots of projects out there. and i can tell you that senator and i can tell you that senator stumpf is probably the most stumpf is probably the most popular senator right now this popular senator right now this year. year. [laughter]

[laughter] >> rep. torkelson: i happen to >> rep. torkelson: i happen to sit next to him and i think i sit next to him and i think i have the most valuable piece of have the most valuable piece of real estate in the chambers. real estate in the chambers. [laughter] [laughter] >> rep. torkelson: every time i >> rep. torkelson: every time i get up there is another senator get up there is another senator sitting at my seat talking to sitting at my seat talking to him.

him. >> barry: as you and i were >> barry: as you and i were visiting before, senator stumpf visiting before, senator stumpf had a distinguished year and had a distinguished year and wrapping up in year. wrapping up in year. 34 years. 34 years. >> rep. torkelson: 36 now. >> rep. torkelson: 36 now. started in 1980 in the house and started in 1980 in the house andin 1982 ran for the senate. in 1982 ran for the senate. and my dad actually helped to

and my dad actually helped to recruit him to run for the house recruit him to run for the houseback in 1980. back in 1980. >> barry: representative lien, >> barry: representative lien, your thoughts on the bonding your thoughts on the bonding bill? bill? >> rep. lien: i really >> rep. lien: i really appreciate the comments about appreciate the comments about the asset preservation and the asset preservation and taking a look at the university

taking a look at the university of minnesota and the mnscu of minnesota and the mnscu campuses. campuses. the governor put in $135 million the governor put in $135 millionbetween the two systems. between the two systems. i think that is something that i think that is something that we do need to focus on. we do need to focus on. it is a much more cost-effective it is a much more cost-effectiveway to maintain buildings than way to maintain buildings than to completely build new

to completely build new buildings. buildings. something else, i really something else, i really appreciate that the governor has appreciate that the governor hasreally been focusing on is the really been focusing on is the emphasis on wastewater emphasis on wastewater infrastructure for cities. infrastructure for cities. i know there was a lot of i know there was a lot of controversy with some of the controversy with some of the nitrates and phosphate issues

nitrates and phosphate issues and things. and things. and so you know from my and so you know from my perspective, you know, i don't perspective, you know, i don't really necessarily want to argue really necessarily want to argueclean water. clean water. i think we all want clean water, i think we all want clean water,but it is just a matter that a but it is just a matter that a lot of these smaller communities lot of these smaller communitiesespecially, you know, greater

especially, you know, greater minnesota communities they don't minnesota communities they don'thave the capacity to pay for a have the capacity to pay for a lot of this maintenance. lot of this maintenance. so i really appreciate the so i really appreciate the governor's focus on that to governor's focus on that to really, i do pro esch appreciatt really, i do pro esch appreciattand i -- i appreciate that and i and i -- i appreciate that and ihope we can get a robust bonding hope we can get a robust bondingbill done this year.

bill done this year. lot of robust projects. lot of robust projects. >> , a lot of backlog of >> , a lot of backlog of projects. projects. i am optimistic that we can do i am optimistic that we can do some good work this year. some good work this year. >> barry: senator westrom your >> barry: senator westrom your thoughts on the bonding bill? thoughts on the bonding bill? >> sen. westrom: again, we have >> sen. westrom: again, we have the same, a lot of

the same, a lot of infrastructure and investment. infrastructure and investment. i, too, hope we invest and i, too, hope we invest and procuss on press -- focus on procuss on press -- focus on preservation of assets. preservation of assets. will is a lot of waste water and will is a lot of waste water andclean water treatment plants in clean water treatment plants in the communities that are very the communities that are very expensive and some aren't that expensive and some aren't that old except the rules and

old except the rules and standards keep changing by the standards keep changing by the pca and epa. pca and epa. i hope we haven invest in some i hope we haven invest in some of -- i hope we can invest in of -- i hope we can invest in some of those areas. some of those areas. i have a couple of bills myself i have a couple of bills myself thatdale with that issue. thatdale with that issue. so i think those are some of the so i think those are some of thecore infrastructure issues.

core infrastructure issues. i'm hearing a lot of members i'm hearing a lot of members whatten to make sure are the whatten to make sure are the focus of the bill and not new focus of the bill and not new things if we have things to things if we have things to preserve. preserve. bridges, local bridge and county bridges, local bridge and countybridges if we can help fund that bridges if we can help fund thataccount it helps move down the account it helps move down the list.

list. some of those are some things some of those are some things that i know are very important that i know are very important across my eight counties and across my eight counties and across the state. across the state. and so that is where my emphasis and so that is where my emphasishas been. has been. i had one of those meetings with i had one of those meetings withchair stumpf last week in the chair stumpf last week in the senate chambers and it is a big

senate chambers and it is a big task to split $5 billion down to task to split $5 billion down to$800 million to 1.4. $800 million to 1.4. either way, a lot of either way, a lot of prioritizing. prioritizing. but you know the one good thing, but you know the one good thing,we should not and do not need to we should not and do not need tobond for more prison because you bond for more prison because youknow i am on the side of we know i am on the side of we should use the state -- or the

should use the state -- or the state should be using the state should be using the appleton prison. appleton prison. and so i hope that is not in the and so i hope that is not in thebonding bill. bonding bill. i hope the new state prison is i hope the new state prison is not in the bonding bill and we not in the bonding bill and we find a way to use appleton. find a way to use appleton. >> barry: let's move to that >> barry: let's move to that question as you introduced it,

question as you introduced it, senator westrom, because we have senator westrom, because we haveseveral viewers concerned about several viewers concerned about that. that. a viewer who wants to know why a viewer who wants to know why the prison is not being used. the prison is not being used. the state needs space. the state needs space. many viewers in the appleton many viewers in the appleton area who think this is something area who think this is somethingwe should be doing.

we should be doing. i know it is controversial and i know it is controversial and there has been discussion about there has been discussion about it. it. who can bring us up to date on who can bring us up to date on where this stands in the where this stands in the legislature right now? legislature right now? >> i would be happy to dive in. >> i would be happy to dive in. i'm sure everyone has an i'm sure everyone has an opinion.

opinion. >> right. >> right. >> i had an opportunity to tour >> i had an opportunity to tour the appleton prison a few weeks the appleton prison a few weeks ago. ago. it is there standing empty. it is there standing empty. the company has continued to the company has continued to invest in the facility so keep invest in the facility so keep it up to date so it is fully it up to date so it is fully licensed and ready to go.

licensed and ready to go. we have over last count i heard we have over last count i heard anyway, over 600 state prisoners anyway, over 600 state prisonersbeing housed in county jails being housed in county jails around the state and i can't around the state and i can't believe they are getting the believe they are getting the kind of services that they need kind of services that they need as far as education and as far as education and healthcare and mental healthcare healthcare and mental healthcarein those county prisons or

in those county prisons or jails, county jails that they jails, county jails that they would get in a larger facility would get in a larger facility like the appleton prison. like the appleton prison. however, and there is a big however, and there is a big however, this has become a very however, this has become a very controversial subject. controversial subject. i'm h sure folks heard about the i'm h sure folks heard about thehearing in the house last week hearing in the house last week where there were protests.

where there were protests. >> threats even. >> threats even. >> some folks, there have been >> some folks, there have been some threats and folks that just some threats and folks that justthe prison a owned by a company the prison a owned by a company that is in the prison business, that is in the prison business, they just don't want to have any they just don't want to have anyassociation with it. association with it. but for the community of but for the community of appleton, it is an asset that is

appleton, it is an asset that isbeing unused. being unused. jobs that could be filled that jobs that could be filled that are not filled. are not filled. so, i will let others express so, i will let others express their opinion but my opinion is their opinion but my opinion is that we should utilize the that we should utilize the facility. facility. >> barry: representative lien? >> barry: representative lien? >> rep. lien: i understand some

>> rep. lien: i understand some of the economic development of the economic development needs and economic development needs and economic development questions. questions. however, i don't see that however, i don't see that incarcerating people as good incarcerating people as good model for economic development. model for economic development. if we are going to be talking if we are going to be talking about space issue in prisons and about space issue in prisons andthings in the criminal justice

things in the criminal justice system, i think a lot of that system, i think a lot of that has to do with mental health has to do with mental health issues and taking a look at if issues and taking a look at if there is a way we can use there is a way we can use criminal justice system to sort criminal justice system to sort of reform how we approach mental of reform how we approach mentalhealth issues. health issues. clay county as senator eken clay county as senator eken mentioned we have i who think

mentioned we have i who think the oldest county jail in the the oldest county jail in the state in clay county so we do state in clay county so we do need to do some things there and need to do some things there andthe county is working to kine of the county is working to kine ofimplement -- kind of implement implement -- kind of implement or spear head a mental health or spear head a mental health pilot project so we can work pilot project so we can work with people facing issues. with people facing issues. i have heard anywhere from 70%

i have heard anywhere from 70% to 80% of the people in the clay to 80% of the people in the claycounty jail on any given day county jail on any given day have some sort of mental health have some sort of mental health situation and i think the situation and i think the unfortunate thing about this is unfortunate thing about this is that this he don't really that this he don't really encounter the treatment or encounter the treatment or resources out there for the resources out there for the mental health until they

mental health until they encounter the criminal. encounter the criminal. >> us tess system. >> us tess system. i think that is a big part of i think that is a big part of it. it. it is about -- a big part of it it is about -- a big part of it is changing the way that we work is changing the way that we workwith folks that have some of with folks that have some of these mental health issues. these mental health issues. >> barry: senator eken?

>> barry: senator eken? >> sen. eken: the appleton >> sen. eken: the appleton facility is a facility that is facility is a facility that is there but we whatten to make there but we whatten to make sure if we are using it, it is sure if we are using it, it is being used widely and i do have being used widely and i do have some concerns about the company some concerns about the company being discussed as far as the being discussed as far as the owner of it. owner of it. they have a reputation for cut

they have a reputation for cut corners and when we are talking corners and when we are talking about public safety we don't about public safety we don't want to be cut corners. want to be cut corners. i would be more in favor of i would be more in favor of looking at purchasing it by the looking at purchasing it by the state and that is a possibility. state and that is a possibility.and you know certainly we want and you know certainly we want to be utilizing facilities that to be utilizing facilities that are already out there.

are already out there. so that is something that i so that is something that i would consider and would consider and representative lien has been representative lien has been talking about some of the other talking about some of the other jail needs in the state. jail needs in the state. there are a lot of jails that there are a lot of jails that are, you know, very old and need are, you know, very old and needto be replaced and again, this to be replaced and again, this is a very important function of

is a very important function of government. government. and i do think the state needs and i do think the state needs to play a bigger role. to play a bigger role. i guess in helping out our i guess in helping out our counties who are incurring a lot counties who are incurring a lotof costs because ever of costs because ever regulations that are being regulations that are being imposed from the state. imposed from the state. and so if the state is going to

and so if the state is going to be imposing and setting rules be imposing and setting rules and regulations that are costly, and regulations that are costly,i think the state should be i think the state should be helping to pay for that. helping to pay for that. and so that is something i think and so that is something i thinkwe should consider as well. we should consider as well. >> barry: senator westrom, i >> barry: senator westrom, i know you have been watching the know you have been watching the issue carefully.

issue carefully. has there been discussion about has there been discussion about potentially buying the facility potentially buying the facility from cca? from cca? >> sen. westrom: the bill i >> sen. westrom: the bill i authoreed with senator kunen and authoreed with senator kunen andrepresentative miller moving it representative miller moving it through the house, i have more through the house, i have more optimism the house is going to optimism the house is going to do the right thing and pass that

do the right thing and pass thatand would have the state leasing and would have the state leasingthe fay silt so the concerns the fay silt so the concerns about any reputation re or the about any reputation re or the owner they would not be owner they would not be operating it. operating it. would save the state money and would save the state money and it would be state employees out it would be state employees out there and we wouldn't have to there and we wouldn't have to build a new facility at

build a new facility at $140 million a is a state. $140 million a is a state. it is a real deal. it is a real deal. the other thing is nobody talks the other thing is nobody talks about is this facility, it as about is this facility, it as private owned facility. private owned facility. it is the only prison in the it is the only prison in the state that actually pays state that actually pays property taxes to the tune of a property taxes to the tune of a million dollars or more when it

million dollars or more when it has been operational. has been operational. and so, it is -- it really is a and so, it is -- it really is a no brainer. no brainer. it is unfortunate it is becoming it is unfortunate it is becominga partisan divide and the a partisan divide and the governor and senator bach and governor and senator bach and others have started to actually others have started to actually oppose and senator bach signed oppose and senator bach signed on a no appleton prison bill

on a no appleton prison bill which was disappointing i which was disappointing i thought because i think this thought because i think this leasing it by the state was leasing it by the state was probably a good compromise probably a good compromise because i would be a proponent because i would be a proponent that the state should contract that the state should contract and save $20 to $40 a day per and save $20 to $40 a day per prisoner which i used to prisoner which i used to represent appleton in my first

represent appleton in my first house district for six years and house district for six years andi toured that prison many timess i toured that prison many timessa and they have great success a and they have great success stories. stories. haven't had any problems haven't had any problems different than any other prison different than any other prison has. has. and but they -- it really is an and but they -- it really is an economic depressed area because

economic depressed area because of the prison being closed down of the prison being closed down and it could be a win-win for and it could be a win-win for the state and a win-win for the the state and a win-win for the area. area. i hope we can get it through. i hope we can get it through. i think the house is more i think the house is more optimistic wheel representative optimistic wheel representative millers efforts have been strong millers efforts have been strongin the house and it seems like

in the house and it seems like they might be spaing it or they might be spaing it or take -- passing it or taking it take -- passing it or taking it up on floor. up on floor. the senate i don't know yet. the senate i don't know yet. >> barry: the governor said he >> barry: the governor said he would veto the bill. would veto the bill. >> sen. westrom: last i recall i >> sen. westrom: last i recall ithink that is right. think that is right. originally he was more open to

originally he was more open to it and now that it is getting it and now that it is getting closer to time seeing the same closer to time seeing the same old special interests prevail. old special interests prevail. i think it is a missed i think it is a missed opportunity if we don't reopen opportunity if we don't reopen the appleton prison. the appleton prison. the state is facing up to 1,300 the state is facing up to 1,300 beds shortage in the next six beds shortage in the next six years.

years. this a no brainer and we could this a no brainer and we could ramp up and save the taxpayers ramp up and save the taxpayers from having to bond $140 million from having to bond $140 millionfor a new prison and if the for a new prison and if the prison population goes down like prison population goes down likerepresentative lien was laying, representative lien was laying, there are mental health issues there are mental health issues but if you drop the population but if you drop the population when you got a leased facility

when you got a leased facility you can get it go. you can get it go. if you build it you got to keep if you build it you got to keep it up forever. it up forever. >> barry: any other thoughts on >> barry: any other thoughts on the prison issue? the prison issue? if not, we will move on. if not, we will move on. kind of like an auction. kind of like an auction. speak quickly or we will move speak quickly or we will move on.

on. >> sold! >> sold! [laughter] [laughter] >> barry: talk about >> barry: talk about transportation. transportation. viewers in laverne and viewers in laverne and clarkfield concerned what the clarkfield concerned what the legislature is going to do this legislature is going to do this session about transportation. session about transportation. a viewer laverne wants to know

a viewer laverne wants to know what is the plan to fix bridges what is the plan to fix bridges and roads and pay for it and a and roads and pay for it and a viewer in clarkfield wants to viewer in clarkfield wants to know what and when we will see a know what and when we will see atransportation bill j who wants transportation bill j who wants to take a run that the? to take a run that the? start with you, senator eken? start with you, senator eken? go ahead. go ahead. >> sen. eken: everybody agrees

>> sen. eken: everybody agrees that we need significantly more that we need significantly more funding for our transportation funding for our transportation system and our roads and system and our roads and bridges. bridges. and the only question is how to and the only question is how to do it. do it. and i think that there is no and i think that there is no question as to what is probably question as to what is probably the best way for the greatest

the best way for the greatest minnesota areas, but there is minnesota areas, but there is different proposals throughout. different proposals throughout. one is to do the way we have one is to do the way we have done it traditionally through done it traditionally through the gas tax. the gas tax. another way is to take it from another way is to take it from the general fund and taking from the general fund and taking fromthe general fund means it has to the general fund means it has tocome from things funded through

come from things funded through the general fund other things the general fund other things like nursing homes and like nursing homes and schools. schools. and i have concerns about and i have concerns about pitting people against roads and pitting people against roads andbridges and we have bridges and we have traditionally done it through traditionally done it through the gas tax with i is dedicate. the gas tax with i is dedicate. it is constitutionally

it is constitutionally dedicated. dedicated. any funding that comes from the any funding that comes from the general fund would not be general fund would not be constitutionally dedicate. constitutionally dedicate. you could loss lose it. you could loss lose it. might have it next year but this might have it next year but thisyear it would be gone. year it would be gone. and for transportation funding and for transportation funding and projects you into ed to have

and projects you into ed to havelong-term funding to make long-term funding to make long-term plans. long-term plans. so that is one of the reasons so that is one of the reasons that i think a gas tax fits that that i think a gas tax fits thatbill more in providing that bill more in providing that long-term stability and knowing long-term stability and knowing what it going to be there. what it going to be there. and some other issues about the and some other issues about the gas tax is that we do in greater

gas tax is that we do in greaterminnesota get back more than minnesota get back more than what we pay in. what we pay in. for every dollar we are paying for every dollar we are paying in in gas tax we are getting in in gas tax we are getting back more. back more. the formula works well and a the formula works well and a formula we need to protect in formula we need to protect in greater minnesota. greater minnesota. it has been a good formula and

it has been a good formula and also exempts farm fuel. also exempts farm fuel. the only industry i am aware of the only industry i am aware of completely exempt from the ghast completely exempt from the ghasttax and the the biggest industry tax and the the biggest industryin our area and i come from a in our area and i come from a farm myself. farm myself. agriculture is the biggest agriculture is the biggest industry in our area and for industry in our area and for that to be exempt is beneficial

that to be exempt is beneficial for the area. for the area. so i would say that you know so i would say that you know when you are looking at what the when you are looking at what theoptions are taking it out of options are taking it out of general fund which takes it from general fund which takes it fromthings like schools and our things like schools and our nursing homes or doing it nursing homes or doing it through the gas tax which is a through the gas tax which is a constitutionally dedicated and

constitutionally dedicated and has a formula that works well has a formula that works well for the area and exempts the for the area and exempts the farm fuel and then the border farm fuel and then the border cities as well that are also cities as well that are also exempted from the gas tax. exempted from the gas tax. that would include like moorhead that would include like moorheadand dillworth. and dillworth. it is no question a is to what it is no question a is to what is the best option.

is the best option. everybody agrees we need more everybody agrees we need more fund. fund. just a matter of how you do it. just a matter of how you do it. i think at this point it doesn't i think at this point it doesn'tlook real likely. look real likely. i am willing to accept i am willing to accept compromise and look at taking compromise and look at taking money in from the general fund money in from the general fund but you have to visit the

but you have to visit the constitutionally gas tax user constitutionally gas tax user fee. fee. it as user fee. it as user fee. and if you don't raise the and if you don't raise the funding from the state level funding from the state level what it means is property taxes what it means is property taxes go up at the local level and go up at the local level and that is a very regressive tax that is a very regressive tax that hits greater minnesota

that hits greater minnesota harder than any other area. harder than any other area. >> barry: representative >> barry: representative torkelson your thoughts on the torkelson your thoughts on the transportation bill? transportation bill? >> rep. torkelson: i have quite >> rep. torkelson: i have quite a few disagreements with the a few disagreements with the senator. senator. first let me say that i believe first let me say that i believe getting a transportation bill

getting a transportation bill passed is the key to getting the passed is the key to getting thesession moving in the right session moving in the right direction. direction. transportation something we have transportation something we havebeen talking about for a long been talking about for a long time but haven't seem to been time but haven't seem to been able to take action on and we able to take action on and we need to. need to. we are doing a, you know, right

we are doing a, you know, right now we are doing quite a bit of now we are doing quite a bit of work yet and we have a work yet and we have a substantial amount of substantial amount of transportation bonds, highway transportation bonds, highway bonds available for use. bonds available for use. we all agree there a need for we all agree there a need for more funding. more funding. is the gas tax the best when is the gas tax the best when shod?

shod? the gas -- method. the gas -- method. the gas tax is becoming less the gas tax is becoming less appropriate for funding appropriate for funding transportation as we see cars transportation as we see cars getting better and better gas getting better and better gas milable and electric cars the milable and electric cars the gas tax is not necessarily the gas tax is not necessarily the best method for funding best method for funding transportation in my opinion.

transportation in my opinion. so, we do need to figure out, so, we do need to figure out, though some way to get this though some way to get this moving forward. moving forward. it needs to happen. it needs to happen. i think it is the one thing that i think it is the one thing thatneeds to happen to get the other needs to happen to get the otherbills going. bills going. relates to the tax bill and we relates to the tax bill and we funded with local generation

funded with local generation bonds but they can't fill the bonds but they can't fill the entire void. entire void. it is building, it building it is building, it building these pieces together to get these pieces together to get transportation moving in the transportation moving in the right direction is critical, i right direction is critical, i think, to this session moving think, to this session moving forward and i hope that we can forward and i hope that we can find that compromise that gets

find that compromise that gets this. this. >> barry: senator westrom, what >> barry: senator westrom, what do you think? do you think? >> sen. westrom: there is lots >> sen. westrom: there is lots of ideas on the table. of ideas on the table. all of us agree we would like to all of us agree we would like tofind additional funding. find additional funding. one thing i know like senator one thing i know like senator eken, i am ready and willing to

eken, i am ready and willing to compromise but there is glaring compromise but there is glaring omissions. omissions. i talked about reform in 2008 i i talked about reform in 2008 i said we should reform first or said we should reform first or at the same time and everybody at the same time and everybody said we will reform later. said we will reform later. here we are 2016, spending the here we are 2016, spending the money of virtually the same way money of virtually the same way as we spent it in 2008.

as we spent it in 2008. and let me give you a couple and let me give you a couple examples. examples. road contractors that build road contractors that build these roads have come to us for these roads have come to us for years and asked for the same years and asked for the same change that other industries had change that other industries hadto carry 90,000 pounds instead to carry 90,000 pounds instead of 80,000 pounds if they add a of 80,000 pounds if they add a third axl.

third axl. they could save 5% to 10% on te they could save 5% to 10% on tebids. bids. we have special interests we have special interests continually blocking that. continually blocking that. if we aren't going to make the if we aren't going to make the common sense reforms for the tax common sense reforms for the taxpayer and the way we spend payer and the way we spend dollars in the fund it doesn't dollars in the fund it doesn't pay to inject a whole bunch more

pay to inject a whole bunch moremoney in the fund what we could money in the fund what we could make easy chains and save the 5, make easy chains and save the 5,10, 20% from the cost of high 10, 20% from the cost of high construction. construction. that is missing in the that is missing in the discussion in the senate and i discussion in the senate and i told that to the pete over and told that to the pete over and over. over. i -- to the committee over and

i -- to the committee over and over. over. i sit on the transportation i sit on the transportation committee and that is something committee and that is something to earn the trust of the to earn the trust of the taxpayers we are in fact serious taxpayers we are in fact seriousabout spending these dollars as about spending these dollars as efficiently as possible and find efficiently as possible and findthe 20 abouters to 30% in the 20 abouters to 30% in savings as the same time as we

savings as the same time as we inject mo are money. inject mo are money. the sales tax off of auto parts the sales tax off of auto parts or some kind of a gas tax. or some kind of a gas tax. the problem with the gas tax, it the problem with the gas tax, itis a new sales tax on gasoline. is a new sales tax on gasoline. not the traditional 5 cents, 10 not the traditional 5 cents, 10 cents which is now 28 cents cents which is now 28 cents cents a gallon. cents a gallon. as gas prices go up it would be

as gas prices go up it would be 6.5% of the price and then they 6.5% of the price and then they have a floor so if it goes down have a floor so if it goes down the consumer doesn't save any the consumer doesn't save any money because they have a floor money because they have a floor but if it goes up they pay more. but if it goes up they pay more.the traditional gas tax would be the traditional gas tax would bemore fair and more palatable by more fair and more palatable by more legislators. more legislators. >> barry: representative lien,

>> barry: representative lien, your thoughts? your thoughts? >> rep. lien: we went into the >> rep. lien: we went into the 2015 session talking 2015 session talking transportation. transportation. that was going to be the big that was going to be the big transportation year. transportation year. and i think if there is anything and i think if there is anythingwe can take away that session is we can take away that session isespecially in a divided

especially in a divided government if you can't government if you can't compromise you are not going to compromise you are not going to get anything done. get anything done. personally i would favor looking personally i would favor lookingat the already constitutionally at the already constitutionally dedicated gas tax. dedicated gas tax. we do get more of the benefit we do get more of the benefit than what we pay in. than what we pay in. but we do need the come premize.

but we do need the come premize.if it will take some general if it will take some general fund cash, to an extent, some fund cash, to an extent, some banding to an extent -- bonding banding to an extent -- bonding to an extent we have to be open to an extent we have to be open to doing those things if we are to doing those things if we are serious and open. serious and open. >> reforms too, senator lien. >> reforms too, senator lien. i think we need to talk more i think we need to talk more about the reforms.

about the reforms. >> rep. lien: yep. >> rep. lien: yep. >> barry: a couple of specific >> barry: a couple of specific questions. questions. i don't think they will take us i don't think they will take us much to get through. much to get through. viewer from apple valley viewer from apple valley concerned about the temporary concerned about the temporary family healthcare dwellings family healthcare dwellings bill.

bill. one of the interesting things one of the interesting things about serving as a moderator for about serving as a moderator forthe program is you learn how the program is you learn how involved sit zens are at what is involved sit zens are at what isgoing on at the legislature here going on at the legislature hereis a bill that had to do with is a bill that had to do with allowing people to have allowing people to have essentially temporary housing in essentially temporary housing intheir backyard to care for an

their backyard to care for an ailing family member and, of ailing family member and, of course, the problem you run into course, the problem you run intoare zoning ordinances. are zoning ordinances. as an old city attorney zoning as an old city attorney zoning ordinances are not the most ordinances are not the most flexible things one ever met. flexible things one ever met. does any one here on the panel does any one here on the panel know anything on the status of know anything on the status of the bill or likelihood for pass

the bill or likelihood for pass and? and? >> i haven't heard too much >> i haven't heard too much about the specific bill. about the specific bill. i did have a constituent e-mail i did have a constituent e-mail me about this and sent me some me about this and sent me some information about it. information about it. and you know i would have say it and you know i would have say itis intriguing. is intriguing. and i assume that the issue from

and i assume that the issue fromthe state perspective is coming the state perspective is coming as you say because we have the as you say because we have the local ordinances. local ordinances. >> barry: right. >> barry: right. >> and people are look for some >> and people are look for some sort of uniformity to the issue. sort of uniformity to the issue.as far as actual specific bills as far as actual specific bills and with are those are at in the and with are those are at in thelegislature i have not heard too

legislature i have not heard toomuch. much. >> barry: anybody else? >> barry: anybody else? >> i know there was a hearing >> i know there was a hearing barry and to the caller oen what barry and to the caller oen whatthey call tiny houses as they call tiny houses as israeli. israeli. >> barry: i >> barry: i recall. recall. >> barry: right.

>> barry: right. >> and the concept of what you >> and the concept of what you what you need to live, the what you need to live, the bedroom, bathroom and kippen and bedroom, bathroom and kippen andall blended together and working all blended together and workingtogether. together. but in cases where a family but in cases where a family member has a mother or father or member has a mother or father orsomebody ill that needs to live somebody ill that needs to live close they can live in deabout

close they can live in deabout pendently but need somebody pendently but need somebody checking up on them frequently. checking up on them frequently. it seems like a good common it seems like a good common sense option if we can find a sense option if we can find a way to make this and not way to make this and not overstep local control but kind overstep local control but kind of nudge it and urge that maybe of nudge it and urge that maybe this is a very practical way to this is a very practical way to help with healthcare costs as we

help with healthcare costs as wehave an aging upon lakes more have an aging upon lakes more and more people -- abling and more people -- abling population more and more people population more and more people might need to look at having might need to look at having their parents or somebody they their parents or somebody they know live in the space nearby if know live in the space nearby ifyou have the space. you have the space. the bill i have was allow for up the bill i have was allow for upto six months.

to six months. >> barry: correct. >> barry: correct. >> that seemed a little short. >> that seemed a little short. that is close the end of life if that is close the end of life ifsomebody is down it six months. somebody is down it six months. but it is a start and good but it is a start and good discussion to have. discussion to have. because in the bigger context of because in the bigger context ofhealthcare, that is a big cost healthcare, that is a big cost for the government and we have

for the government and we have tried to find more and more ways tried to find more and more waysto have dip living opportunities to have dip living opportunitiesfor -- independent living for -- independent living opportunities and this i think opportunities and this i think fits into the discussion. fits into the discussion. >> i agree with senator westrom, >> i agree with senator westrom,we should be looking at we should be looking at innovation and we have a growing innovation and we have a growingdemand for long-term care.

demand for long-term care. and i think that independence is and i think that independence isimportant as we want people to important as we want people to be as independent and they want be as independent and they want to be and we should be trying to to be and we should be trying tohelp people who want to take help people who want to take care of their elderly parents or care of their elderly parents orgrandparents, providing them grandparents, providing them with more options that may be with more options that may be available.

available. so i think that we should be, so i think that we should be, you know, looking at new ideas. you know, looking at new ideas. you mentioned reform. you mentioned reform. we are definitely going to have we are definitely going to have to be looking at reform in the to be looking at reform in the area of long-term care as well. area of long-term care as well. >> barry: any thoughts on this, >> barry: any thoughts on this, representative torkelson? representative torkelson? >> rep. torkelson: a fairly new

>> rep. torkelson: a fairly new concept. concept. proceed cautiously but evaluate proceed cautiously but evaluate carefully. carefully. >> barry: i have a question for >> barry: i have a question for you specifically from a viewer you specifically from a viewer in miltona who wants to know in miltona who wants to know describe the changes in what the describe the changes in what theviewer describes as the viewer describes as the dayton-torkelson buffer bill.

dayton-torkelson buffer bill. i can't miss the opportunity to i can't miss the opportunity to ask you to explain the changes ask you to explain the changes in the dayton-torkelson buffer in the dayton-torkelson buffer bill. bill. >> rep. torkelson: we did pass >> rep. torkelson: we did pass buffer legislation at the end of buffer legislation at the end ofsession last year. session last year. it was kind of in the dark of it was kind of in the dark of night, in a way.

night, in a way. not the way i would suggest not the way i would suggest proceeding with legislation and proceeding with legislation and it is no surprise me need to do it is no surprise me need to do clarification. clarification. it was poignantly pointed out it was poignantly pointed out during the fall and winter that during the fall and winter that there was a discrepancy in how there was a discrepancy in how we interpreted the bill. we interpreted the bill. it was my understanding it was

it was my understanding it was not to affect private ditches not to affect private ditches and the agencies and governors and the agencies and governors thought it would so we had a thought it would so we had a little meeting with are we little meeting with are we finally realized -- the governor finally realized -- the governorfinally realized that we needed finally realized that we needed to avoid trying to do the to avoid trying to do the private ditches for lots of private ditches for lots of reasons.

reasons. one just being structural. one just being structural. there is no definition of of there is no definition of of what a private ditch is. what a private ditch is. we an inventory of public waters we an inventory of public watersand publish ditches and that is and publish ditches and that is war we will be proceed -- where war we will be proceed -- where we will be proceeding with we will be proceeding with buffers. buffers. the bill that passed through the

the bill that passed through thesenate environment committee day senate environment committee dayis a clarification bill. is a clarification bill. i met with the governor and that i met with the governor and thatis what we agreed to do that we is what we agreed to do that we agreed to clarify the agreed to clarify the legislation to people underand legislation to people underand it what their jurisdiction is it what their jurisdiction is and understand what is expected and understand what is expected and you believe we are very

and you believe we are very close, i think we are will close, i think we are will actually with this legislation. actually with this legislation. i'm meeting some morning with i'm meeting some morning with some agency folks to polish it some agency folks to polish it up and make sure that we up and make sure that we understand exactly what we think understand exactly what we thinkit says. it says. i did get a call from the i did get a call from the governor's office just about an

governor's office just about an hour and a half ago, as a matter hour and a half ago, as a matterof fact. of fact. >> barry: makingmaking news s h, >> barry: makingmaking news s h,follows. follows. i. i. >> rep. torkelson: i got a call >> rep. torkelson: i got a call that the governor intends to that the governor intends to sign. sign. it has been a quite a journey.

it has been a quite a journey. has in ever been my objective to has in ever been my objective tomake anyone really happy with make anyone really happy with in. in. ha is abouten been my objective ha is abouten been my objective to make everyone a little to make everyone a little uncomfortable. uncomfortable. it is hard for farmers and land it is hard for farmers and land owners to give up any of their owners to give up any of their land.

land. it is what they live on and make it is what they live on and maketheir living on. their living on. statement, it is important to statement, it is important to protect water and water quality protect water and water quality and to protect the ditches and to protect the ditches themselves. themselves. we have examples of some farmers we have examples of some farmersthat, you know, kind of whatten that, you know, kind of whatten to get every inch of land this y

to get every inch of land this ycan to get the first row of corn can to get the first row of corninside the ditch. inside the ditch. that is not good. that is not good. we need to protect the ditches we need to protect the ditches and the protect water and try and the protect water and try and do it in a way that and do it in a way that removes as little land from poe removes as little land from poe ducks as possible and still does ducks as possible and still doesthe job.

the job. i think what we have done a i think what we have done a really drive down the really drive down the responsibility and decision responsibility and decision making to the local level as making to the local level as much as possible so that county much as possible so that county boards and local water boards and local water authorities will is discretion authorities will is discretion on how the buffers are applied on how the buffers are applied and found some money for the

and found some money for the swcd. swcd. >> barry: soil and water >> barry: soil and water conservation. conservation. >> rep. torkelson: the syl and >> rep. torkelson: the syl and water conservation -- the soil water conservation -- the soil and water conservation and water conservation districts. districts. funding available to be the funding available to be the technical people to help farmers

technical people to help farmersevaluate the situations and evaluate the situations and apply the right buffer in the apply the right buffer in the right place. right place. and i believe we are going to and i believe we are going to make good progress. make good progress. i have already seen on my drive i have already seen on my drive between my lake home and my farm between my lake home and my farmhome i drive past two home i drive past two situations.

situations. i drive past a did you ever that i drive past a did you ever thathas already been -- a buffer has already been -- a buffer already planted i believe as already planted i believe as reaction to the legislation even reaction to the legislation eventhough it is not required for a though it is not required for a couple of years. couple of years. that farmer has put his buffer that farmer has put his buffer in already and i drive by in already and i drive by another spot where there was a

another spot where there was a ditch but that land owner ditch but that land owner decided to lay tile in the decided to lay tile in the bottom of the ditch and fill it bottom of the ditch and fill it in which is fine. in which is fine. that prevents any soil erosion that prevents any soil erosion in that situation. in that situation. >> barry: would you say the >> barry: would you say the principal difference or the principal difference or the clarification is dealing with

clarification is dealing with the about public-private ditch? the about public-private ditch? >> rep. torkelson: eliminating >> rep. torkelson: eliminating the private ditches from it and the private ditches from it and limiting ourselves to the public limiting ourselves to the publicwater's inventory and public water's inventory and public ditches and the other major ditches and the other major point is just defining the point is just defining the jurisdiction so that the county jurisdiction so that the county boards and water authorities

boards and water authorities understand. understand. >> barry: nsenator see ken? >> barry: nsenator see ken? >> sen. eken: there have been >> sen. eken: there have been some concerns in regard to the some concerns in regard to the aggressive timeline and whether aggressive timeline and whether it can be accomplished in the it can be accomplished in the time alotted and some counties time alotted and some counties are way ahead of others and some are way ahead of others and somecounties are basically complete

counties are basically complete but a lot of counties that have but a lot of counties that have a lot of work to do and a lot a lot of work to do and a lot the of ditches and waterways the of ditches and waterways that they have to deal with and that they have to deal with and we want to make sure that the we want to make sure that the time is sufficient to make sure time is sufficient to make sure it is done right. it is done right. and i mean i understand those and i mean i understand those who want to make sure that it

who want to make sure that it gets done, but we also want to gets done, but we also want to make sure i think more important make sure i think more importantthan doing it fast is doing it than doing it fast is doing it right. right. and there are alternative and there are alternative practices, too, that may be more practices, too, that may be moreefficient and more effective and efficient and more effective andthat all takes time and we want that all takes time and we want to make sure we are doing it in

to make sure we are doing it in the most efficient way. the most efficient way. i think that as far as the i think that as far as the buffer strips are concerned this buffer strips are concerned thiswas the inish yoel proposal was was the inish yoel proposal was actually for the 50 feet and it actually for the 50 feet and it was for ditches and for the was for ditches and for the waterways and that was one size waterways and that was one size fits all model that really fits all model that really didn't work and i think that the

didn't work and i think that thefact that all of the rural fact that all of the rural legislators today together in legislators today together in making sure that we had making sure that we had something that was more something that was more reasonable than what had reasonable than what had originally been proposed so we originally been proposed so we got down to the 16.5 foot on rod got down to the 16.5 foot on rodon the ditches which is on the ditches which is basically was in existing law

basically was in existing law but what passed is expediting a but what passed is expediting a and accelerating the and accelerating the implementation. implementation. i heard concerns maybe that i heard concerns maybe that timeline is a little aggressive timeline is a little aggressive and maybe if we could -- and and maybe if we could -- and representative lien had talked representative lien had talked about a possibility of if you about a possibility of if you have a good faith effort that

have a good faith effort that you are showing that you are on you are showing that you are on the path to achieving it, that the path to achieving it, that maybe you could be given more maybe you could be given more time and i thought that that was time and i thought that that wasa good idea. a good idea. >> barry: representative lien >> barry: representative lien your thoughts quickly on this? your thoughts quickly on this? >> rep. lien: i think what >> rep. lien: i think what representative torkelson and

representative torkelson and senator eken have said here sums senator eken have said here sumsit up. it up. i was pleased to see that the i was pleased to see that the private ditches were taken out private ditches were taken out of that. of that. i have seen some maps of clay i have seen some maps of clay county fields and trying to county fields and trying to manage that for private ditches manage that for private ditches i couldn't even imagine.

i couldn't even imagine. >> the soil and water districts >> the soil and water districts would do that. would do that. i think another aspect that we i think another aspect that we have to be talking about have to be talking about thinking about are ag property thinking about are ag property taxes and i know we spent a taxes and i know we spent a considerable amount of time on considerable amount of time on that and the property tax that and the property tax division here a couple of weeks

division here a couple of weeks ago and it is a concern. ago and it is a concern. crop prices are down but the crop prices are down but the land values are still high and land values are still high and property taxes for formers are property taxes for formers are still high. still high. that deserves much attention, that deserves much attention, too, i think this session. too, i think this session. >> barry: senator westrom, >> barry: senator westrom, ditches and property taxes.

ditches and property taxes. we will segue into that. we will segue into that. >> sen. westrom: i think there >> sen. westrom: i think there will be strong support by and will be strong support by and large. large. i think most legislators that i think most legislators that passed the democrats and passed the democrats and republicans last year never republicans last year never intended a new private ditches intended a new private ditches should not be thrown in and what

should not be thrown in and whathappened was the language said happened was the language said and benefited areas and the and benefited areas and the d.n.r. took that and the liberty d.n.r. took that and the libertyto kind of stretch it back to to kind of stretch it back to the private ditches. the private ditches. so getting that cl clarified wil so getting that cl clarified wilbe good. be good. i would agree with senator i would agree with senator econdition.

econdition. i have heard concern about i have heard concern about getting it done by 2017 and getting it done by 2017 and 2018. 2018. i will think we should probably i will think we should probably look at if there is a good faith look at if there is a good faitheffort moving forward they effort moving forward they should get a few more years. should get a few more years. with the tight timeline it will with the tight timeline it will soon run the clock on those that

soon run the clock on those thatcan put crp in and the soil and can put crp in and the soil and water conservation districts in water conservation districts in my office in the last week are my office in the last week are expressing concern that people expressing concern that people hardly will have time to do that hardly will have time to do thatwhen you just deal with the when you just deal with the seven month planting season or seven month planting season or five month frozen ground. five month frozen ground. so we might have to look at

so we might have to look at this. this. maybe it would be a friendly maybe it would be a friendly amendment we could put on the amendment we could put on the bill. bill. >> barry: we have a couple of >> barry: we have a couple of issues that i don't think will issues that i don't think will take much time. take much time. a is going on with the federal a is going on with the federal real i.d. act.

real i.d. act. could be important to people could be important to people getting on airplanes. getting on airplanes. anybody going to update us on anybody going to update us on this quickly? this quickly? >> i am on the transportation >> i am on the transportation committee. committee. senator eken i don't know if you senator eken i don't know if youhave seen, but what we did pass have seen, but what we did pass is the first part of allowing

is the first part of allowing the department to plan or look the department to plan or look at it and give us a report by at it and give us a report by the middle of april. the middle of april. that is the first status. that is the first status. originally the law statutes we originally the law statutes we forbid the department from even forbid the department from even going down the road of planning going down the road of planning and looking at this. and looking at this. the time has come, the federal

the time has come, the federal government did give us an government did give us an extension but we are now extension but we are now allowing the department to plan allowing the department to plan and they c they are going to cok and they c they are going to cokand the next phase with their and the next phase with their report and what we handle this report and what we handle this year and probably next year will year and probably next year willspill over into next year on spill over into next year on what we do.

what we do. the most favorable thing i am the most favorable thing i am hearing about is a two track hearing about is a two track system. system. anybody interested in a real anybody interested in a real i.d. maybe for flying is the big i.d. maybe for flying is the bigpurpose although you can use the purpose although you can use thepassport instead of the real passport instead of the real i.d. and have a two track system i.d. and have a two track systemand keep the current minnesota

and keep the current minnesota driver's license or opt into a driver's license or opt into a real i.d. if they chose that real i.d. if they chose that option and then whatever the option and then whatever the federal government strings were federal government strings were attached. attached. that is the real concern that that is the real concern that many of us have a privacy and many of us have a privacy and states rights. states rights. >> barry: any other thoughts?

>> barry: any other thoughts? >> my hope we can get a system >> my hope we can get a system in place people can renew in the in place people can renew in thenormal cycle and not have to go normal cycle and not have to go out of their way to get the real out of their way to get the reali.d.s if they want them. i.d.s if they want them. >> barry: go back to >> barry: go back to representative lien's question representative lien's question about ag property taxes. about ag property taxes. we have viewers mo expressed

we have viewers mo expressed concerns about declining concerns about declining commodity prices but rising commodity prices but rising property taxes. property taxes. this is normally a bonding year this is normally a bonding year and normally you wouldn't see a and normally you wouldn't see a lot of legislative action on lot of legislative action on some of these issues. some of these issues. who wants to take a run at that? who wants to take a run at that?>> we did not pass a tax bill

>> we did not pass a tax bill last year. last year. the tax bill does have a the tax bill does have a proposal in it that would gave proposal in it that would gave ag land paying toward a school ag land paying toward a school bond issue some relief. bond issue some relief. if your farm is paying towards if your farm is paying towards the building bond for the local the building bond for the local school this phrase or school this phrase or proposition in the tax bill

proposition in the tax bill would give you relief coming would give you relief coming from the state. from the state. the good thing about that is it the good thing about that is it doesn't just push that burden doesn't just push that burden off to other taxpayers in the off to other taxpayers in the property district which would be property district which would bethe homeowners and business the homeowners and business owners this is dollars coming owners this is dollars coming from the state to actually kind

from the state to actually kind ever buy down the tax property ever buy down the tax property tax burden for ag land that is tax burden for ag land that is paying toward a school bond paying toward a school bond issue. issue. i think it as good proposal. i think it as good proposal. not cheap but it would give some not cheap but it would give somerelief to ag land. relief to ag land. at the same time some of our at the same time some of our districts are dependent on ag

districts are dependent on ag land because they don't have a land because they don't have a lot of property tax base in the lot of property tax base in the district. district. you can't eliminate farmland you can't eliminate farmland from helping to build school from helping to build school buildings but this would give buildings but this would give them some relief and i like the them some relief and i like the proposal. proposal. >> barry: norsenator eken your

>> barry: norsenator eken your thoughts? thoughts? >> sen. eken: i think it should >> sen. eken: i think it should be the state as you said. be the state as you said. will note a lot of other will note a lot of other property tax base in some of property tax base in some of these rural communities and i these rural communities and i think we should be reduce is think we should be reduce is property taxes generally. property taxes generally. anything we can do that i think

anything we can do that i think that takes some of the funding that takes some of the funding burdens off of the property tax burdens off of the property tax i think is a good thing. i think is a good thing. and so on the bond issue and i and so on the bond issue and i know you have in the house there know you have in the house therewas one that passed that was for was one that passed that was forhalf of that. half of that. about a $50 million price tag on about a $50 million price tag onthat to take half of the burden

that to take half of the burden off the ag lands just placing off the ag lands just placing that burden for bond issues on that burden for bond issues on the house, garage and one acre. the house, garage and one acre. i thank we do need to tried -- i i thank we do need to tried -- ithink we do need to bring think we do need to bring property taxes in line with what property taxes in line with whatkind of income is generated from kind of income is generated fromthe land. the land. right now the income generated

right now the income generated from the land in declean but the from the land in declean but theproperty taxes have continued to property taxes have continued togo up. go up. >> barry: exactly the viewer's >> barry: exactly the viewer's question. question. >> sen. eken: right. >> sen. eken: right. i think we need to take that i think we need to take that into -- that is one of the into -- that is one of the problems with the property tax

problems with the property tax is it doesn't take into is it doesn't take into consideration what the income consideration what the income levels are and one of the most levels are and one of the most regressive taxes there. regressive taxes there. i would prefer shifting more of i would prefer shifting more of the burden to the state and the burden to the state and having the state pick up more of having the state pick up more ofthe burden of funding things the burden of funding things like the bond issues and

like the bond issues and education generally as well as education generally as well as some of the other things. some of the other things. we did set up in this state a we did set up in this state a statewide funding system statewide funding system mechanism. mechanism. going back to the 1970s it was going back to the 1970s it was known as the minnesota miracle known as the minnesota miracle where we shifted more of the where we shifted more of the funding for education on to the

funding for education on to the state to ensure that no matter state to ensure that no matter where you live in the state where you live in the state whether it is a property rich whether it is a property rich metro area or if it is a metro area or if it is a property poor remote rural area property poor remote rural area of the state you still get good of the state you still get good quality education for your quality education for your children at an affordable price. children at an affordable price.>> barry: senator westrom, your

>> barry: senator westrom, your thoughts? thoughts? >> sen. westrom: it is notable >> sen. westrom: it is notable we didn't pass a tax bill last we didn't pass a tax bill last year. year. i think there will be a tax bill i think there will be a tax billeven though it is a shorter even though it is a shorter session. session. typically not always a year that typically not always a year thatwe pass a tax bill and a tax

we pass a tax bill and a tax bill not meaning new taxes but a bill not meaning new taxes but atax relief tax changes that need tax relief tax changes that needto go on. to go on. and you know, i guess i would and you know, i guess i would agree with a lot of what was agree with a lot of what was said. said. the one drawback and i have had the one drawback and i have had farmers bring this to my farmers bring this to my attention on the state picking

attention on the state picking up all or part of this, there up all or part of this, there fairbauls still needs to be -- fairbauls still needs to be -- still needs to be a trigger to still needs to be a trigger to not overbuild or not make it not overbuild or not make it easier to pass a referendum to easier to pass a referendum to build a building that is maybe build a building that is maybe more expensive than what is more expensive than what is needed and what stops that now needed and what stops that now is a local referendum and people

is a local referendum and peoplehave a lively discuss and they have a lively discuss and they have to pay for part or all of have to pay for part or all of it. it. i think you got to make sure i think you got to make sure there is a component that people there is a component that peopleare analyzing the situation and are analyzing the situation and not overbuilding just because not overbuilding just because the state is paying for it. the state is paying for it. >> barry: very quickly.

>> barry: very quickly. >> that is a good point that we >> that is a good point that we to have to keep an eye on if the to have to keep an eye on if thestate is helping out school state is helping out school districts that the districts districts that the districts aren't going out and overbill aren't going out and overbill building. building. a bill that i carried in the a bill that i carried in the house to set up a study that house to set up a study that would take a look at the

would take a look at the assessment system for ag assessment system for ag property taxes in minnesota property taxes in minnesota moving it how we could, how it moving it how we could, how it would work and mos moving from e would work and mos moving from emarket-based to income or market-based to income or production based system production based system assessment. assessment. is in the senate tax bill and is in the senate tax bill and conference committee now.

conference committee now. >> barry: 45 seconds. >> barry: 45 seconds. a quick question from a viewer a quick question from a viewer with mille lacs lake. with mille lacs lake. the viewer is wonderling whether the viewer is wonderling whetheror not there is going to be or not there is going to be anything to happen the anything to happen the businesses around mille lacs. businesses around mille lacs. discussion about that issue at discussion about that issue at the legislature?

the legislature? >> not that i have heard. >> not that i have heard. >> not have i have heard either. >> not have i have heard either.one thing was going to mention one thing was going to mention as far as resorts generally they as far as resorts generally theyare getting caught in some of are getting caught in some of this property tax problems and this property tax problems and so i think we need to make it so i think we need to make it clear that it is not just the clear that it is not just the farmers that are having

farmers that are having difficulties, there is i think difficulties, there is i think we need to really address that we need to really address that issue on a broader scale as far issue on a broader scale as far as property tax relief is as property tax relief is concerned. concerned. >> barry: we are out of time. >> barry: we are out of time. i want to thank your i want to thank your distinguished panel of guests distinguished panel of guests this evening for your tremendous

this evening for your tremendousassistance as we unraveled the assistance as we unraveled the miss iserries of st. paul -- miss iserries of st. paul -- mysteries of st. paul. mysteries of st. paul. we will get to those next week. we will get to those next week. thank you for joining us next thank you for joining us next week and all of the weeks that week and all of the weeks that follow. follow. good night. good night. >> there is much more about

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